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A newbie in trouble - help with starter TT

Bruno Galvão

Bruno Galvão

New Member
My fellow experts, I am lost. It's my first time buying a TT and my budget is rather short. I have EUR400 to spend and here in Berlin, Germany, there is not much good quality vintage TT (or at least nothing I could find). After going back and forth I realized I am stuck and cannot decide between a Pro-Ject Carbon Debut (DC), a Rega Planar 1 2016 or a Music Hall 2.3. Could anyone spare some time and a lot of patient to help this. I beginning from scratch so no speakers or receiver/amp worth mentioning (just some given phillips speakers and a technics 3in1 stereo), but this is next on the list, maybe on Christmas if I behave well.
 
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Hello, I think that 400 euros should get a good Pioneer Direct drive like a PL-510a or similar maybe better.
A whole host of belt drives, AR, or Dual... Plenty of options on eBay in the EU.
I really believe that they would offer a better value start than the Project etc.
 
I own a Music Hall MMF 2.2 and I enjoy it very much. The fact that it has been replaced by the 2.3 makes it available (in the U.S. anyway...) at a steep discount. A great value at $299.
 
Welcome to AK and the hobby Bruno!
As Jack states there will likely be some options available there for you. We just often try to purchase too quickly because we can with almost everything else in life these days. Take your time and look around. you are in a region where several of the great brands are from.
Also, don't forget the value of the cartridge and stylus. They can be more costly than a table!

The table you mentioned are all fine tables. But, many on here will feel that vintage tables for the same $ are probably better tables. You just would need to make sure of their condition. Maybe members here that know your area will provide some ideas of where to look.
 
You should always consider late-model used. Nearly every major country has a web site where dealers and individuals offer good deals on recent equipment. In Germany, it's www.audio-markt.de. When I search there, I see many recent Pro-Ject and Rega turntables offered by private individuals and dealers for very reasonable prices.

I would recommend local pickup for turntables, although dealers and audiophiles in Germany probably know how to ship. There should be a fair number of sellers located near you.

Good luck!
 
Hallo nach Berlin!

Well, you're not likely to find an AR in Germany, and I'm not up to date on the used market (I left for the US 20 years ago), but there has to be a healthy supply of vintage units. Dual, Thorens, PE, Elac ... No longer free with a complete LP collection just for picking it up like it used to be in the 90s, but 400 euros should be plenty.
 
Thank you, everyone! Will give a bit more time to search used ones, the first time I didn't know how to tell which would be a good deal or not. Will take a look at audio-markt. and unfortunately was a bit too late for the thorens td 160....
 
Too bad but I'm not surprised, I guarantee somebody bought that just to flip it and make a nice profit.

There was a TD146 for a good price, too, I think it was 200EUR. A Saba, which is really a PE in a Saba plinth, for 50. And lots of Duals.

Well, we're here to help you figure out what would work for you. Strictly speaking, price/value questions belong into the Dollars and Sense category, though.

I believe the 'tables you mentioned are all fully manual, so you must be comfortable with that. Generally, of the German/Swiss brands, Thorens will be manual or, at most, semi-automatic (lifts the needle and stops the platter at the end of the side), while Dual, PE and Elac will be automatic. Which seems old-fashioned now but is actually nice if the TT sits in a public area, as you can let guests operate it without too much worry. But there is also a lot more "stuff' inside an automatic TT that may need servicing to run properly. PE has a reputation for horribly complicated internal mechanisms (because Dual had patented the simpler solutions) so when looking at a PE, make sure it runs perfectly.

The other important consideration is where you're planning to place it. Do you have concrete floors or wood? I love my TD150 but I have wooden floors and need to walk carefully when it's playing or it will skip. Forget dancing. A wall shelf solves this problem but it needs to be anchored very well to support the weight.
 
bang4buck said:
Too bad but I'm not surprised, I guarantee somebody bought that just to flip it and make a nice profit.

There was a TD146 for a good price, too, I think it was 200EUR. A Saba, which is really a PE in a Saba plinth, for 50. And lots of Duals.

Well, we're here to help you figure out what would work for you. Strictly speaking, price/value questions belong into the Dollars and Sense category, though.

I believe the 'tables you mentioned are all fully manual, so you must be comfortable with that. Generally, of the German/Swiss brands, Thorens will be manual or, at most, semi-automatic (lifts the needle and stops the platter at the end of the side), while Dual, PE and Elac will be automatic. Which seems old-fashioned now but is actually nice if the TT sits in a public area, as you can let guests operate it without too much worry. But there is also a lot more "stuff' inside an automatic TT that may need servicing to run properly. PE has a reputation for horribly complicated internal mechanisms (because Dual had patented the simpler solutions) so when looking at a PE, make sure it runs perfectly.

The other important consideration is where you're planning to place it. Do you have concrete floors or wood? I love my TD150 but I have wooden floors and need to walk carefully when it's playing or it will skip. Forget dancing. A wall shelf solves this problem but it needs to be anchored very well to support the weight.
Click to expand...
Thanks!! My floors are wood too, so I will need to take this into consideration.
 
So finally some candidates....I did some digging on ebay and audiom-market, going through reviews and more reviews of the brands/models and found theses ones as possible candidates:

ELAC 870 – 279,00
Rotel RP 3000 Direct Drive 1970 – EUR 270,00
Telefunken STS-1 Turntable + TLX 22/4 speakers + STP1 stereo preamp – EUR 250,00
Thorens TD 146 – EUR 200,00
Dual 1219 – EUR 150,00
Dual 1019 – EUR 100,00
 
You have some nice choices there. The Dual's and the Thorens mention are all mechanical. No electronics to go bad. The Dual's once cleaned regreased and motors cleaned and oiled will run a long time. Did that to my first 1229 in 1999. Had it ten years with no issues. Both the 1019 and 1219 are well made. Like them both. Don't have a 1019 right now. Many AKers really like them. I am married to all Dual's. My 1219 is great. I like auto shutoff on them. The Thorens is a belt drive manual. Simple and well made. Not sure which Elac you found. Have owned several 50Hs and they were great. Not sure about the Rotel. Many of the Japenesse tables have electronics. Most are quite reliable though. My choice are either Dual's. Good luck. Welcome to AK!
 
Here is some advice not yet posted. Make use of this website:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable-database.php

Find the turntable you are looking for and check the specs for rumble and wow and flutter. The better the specs the better the turntable. It doesn't give you everything you need to make a decision but it will certainly sort the entry level turntables from the really fine ones.

What to look for:

Rumble:
This is the amount of low frequency noise the turntable produces. It is also sometimes called the Signal to Noise ratio. The rumble will be shown as a negative number and signal to noise as positive. So -75 dB rumble is the same as 75 dB signal to noise. Larger numbers mean a quieter machine. For reference, one of the best of the consumer grade turntables, the Technics SL1200 was -78 dB. Entry level is around -45 dB or so.​

Wow and Flutter
This is speed stability. How well does the turntable hold speed with speeding up. It is measured as a percentage and the lower the percentage the better. The Technics mentioned above managed to get to 0.025%. Few belt drives that I have considered get that low but don't let that stop you. There are a lot around that can get better then 0.1 %, but you don't want to go worse then that.​

Once you settle on a turntable, that site may have both the owner's and service manual. You need to register to download them but that's free and they don't ever spam you, so it's well worth it.

Good Luck

Shelly_D

Edit: Corrected the rumble figure for the Technics SL 1200.
 
Last edited:
stereofisher said:
You have some nice choices there. The Dual's and the Thorens mention are all mechanical. No electronics to go bad. The Dual's once cleaned regreased and motors cleaned and oiled will run a long time. Did that to my first 1229 in 1999. Had it ten years with no issues. Both the 1019 and 1219 are well made. Like them both. Don't have a 1019 right now. Many AKers really like them. I am married to all Dual's. My 1219 is great. I like auto shutoff on them. The Thorens is a belt drive manual. Simple and well made. Not sure which Elac you found. Have owned several 50Hs and they were great. Not sure about the Rotel. Many of the Japenesse tables have electronics. Most are quite reliable though. My choice are either Dual's. Good luck. Welcome to AK!
Click to expand...
Thank you! Just fyi, here it is the ELAC:

https://m.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/elac-870-plattenspieler/620688475-172-3366
 
Sh
shelly_d said:
Here is some advice not yet posted. Make use of this website:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable-database.php

Find the turntable you are looking for and check the specs for rumble and wow and flutter. The better the specs the better the turntable. It doesn't give you everything you need to make a decision but it will certainly sort the entry level turntables from the really fine ones.

What to look for:

Rumble:
This is the amount of low frequency noise the turntable produces. It is also sometimes called the Signal to Noise ratio. The rumble will be shown as a negative number and signal to noise as positive. So -75 dB rumble is the same as 75 dB signal to noise. Larger numbers mean a quieter machine. For reference, one of the best of the consumer grade turntables, the Technics SL1200 was -75 dB. Entry level is around -45 dB or so.​

Wow and Flutter
This is speed stability. How well does the turntable hold speed with speeding up. It is measured as a percentage and the lower the percentage the better. The Technics mentioned above managed to get to 0.025%. Few belt drives that I have considered get that low but don't let that stop you. There are a lot around that can get better then 0.1 %, but you don't want to go worse then that.​

Once you settle on a turntable, that site may have both the owner's and service manual. You need to register to download them but that's free and they don't ever spam you, so it's well worth it.

Good Luck

Shelly_D
Click to expand...

Shelly_D, thank you so much, that was quite helpful! Came across some of that specs and didn't know what or how to compare them, so this was just great!
 
shelly_d said:
Here is some advice not yet posted. Make use of this website:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable-database.php

Find the turntable you are looking for and check the specs for rumble and wow and flutter. The better the specs the better the turntable. It doesn't give you everything you need to make a decision but it will certainly sort the entry level turntables from the really fine ones.

What to look for:

Rumble:
This is the amount of low frequency noise the turntable produces. It is also sometimes called the Signal to Noise ratio. The rumble will be shown as a negative number and signal to noise as positive. So -75 dB rumble is the same as 75 dB signal to noise. Larger numbers mean a quieter machine. For reference, one of the best of the consumer grade turntables, the Technics SL1200 was -75 dB. Entry level is around -45 dB or so.​

Wow and Flutter
This is speed stability. How well does the turntable hold speed with speeding up. It is measured as a percentage and the lower the percentage the better. The Technics mentioned above managed to get to 0.025%. Few belt drives that I have considered get that low but don't let that stop you. There are a lot around that can get better then 0.1 %, but you don't want to go worse then that.​

Once you settle on a turntable, that site may have both the owner's and service manual. You need to register to download them but that's free and they don't ever spam you, so it's well worth it.

Good Luck

Shelly_D
Click to expand...


Respectfully

You made the below quote in reference to W&F.
"There are a lot around that can get better then 0.1 %, but you don't want to go worse then that."
I suspect you meant better than .01 as .1 would be totally unacceptable. .0125 is about the best you can normally expect with .025 to .05 being more common.

Also you want s/n of at least 70dB preferably closer to upper 70's

Just my 2¢
 
Bugler said:
Respectfully

You made the below quote in reference to W&F.
"There are a lot around that can get better then 0.1 %, but you don't want to go worse then that."
I suspect you meant better than .01 as .1 would be totally unacceptable. .0125 is about the best you can normally expect with .025 to .05 being more common.

Also you want s/n of at least 70dB preferably closer to upper 70's

Just my 2¢
Click to expand...

Actually I did mean 0.1% as the limit. Even the much vaulted Technics could not get down below .025%. Getting down to .01% is putting the OP way out of his budget, if such performance is even available. I did a bit of research about some of the belt drive turntables out there and found several respectable performing Dual's in the .08% to .09% range.

Since quiet records had noise floors in the mid 60's, a rumble spec of -65 dB or better would also be a respectable performance figure given the OP's budget.

BTW: I did make an error above. The rumble of the SL 1200 is -78dB, not -75 as stated above. I will edit that post to correct it.
 
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