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A question about new vs vintage turntables

The Shocker

Super Member
I own two "vintage" turntables, a Technics SL-D2 and a Dual CS1257. My understanding is that neither of these turntables were "high end" back when they first came out.

Looking at the specs for these turntables, their wow and flutter values, SNR and rumble are significantly better than "higher end" readily available turntables such as the U-turn Orbit Plus, the Fluance RT-85, or even the "high-end" stuff from Pro-ject.

So, what's different about these new turntables that makes them look inferior on paper to vintage turntables. Is it an AC Motor vs DC Motor thing? I feel like having a DC motor with a wall-wart would be a good thing.

Please help a clueless guy understand. There has to be more to this than just "they don't build them like they used to."
 
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I own two "vintage" turntables, a Technics SL-D2 and a Dual CS1257. My understanding is that neither of these turntables were "high end" back when they first came out.

Looking at the specs for these turntables, their wow and flutter values, SNR and rumble are significantly better than "higher end" readily available turntables such as the U-turn Orbit Plus, the Fluance RT-85, or even the "high-end" stuff from Pro-ject.

So, what's different about these new turntables that makes them look inferior on paper to vintage turntables. Is it an AC Motor vs DC Motor thing? I feel like having a DC motor with a wall-wart would be a good thing.

Please help a clueless guy understand. There has to be more to this than just "they don't build them like they used to."

You do realize your Technics is DC servo driven and the Dual AC synchronous lol?

Both motors have their advantages and disadvantages.

My Kenwood's are running DC servo motors, the AR and Thorens AC synchronous, I see neither having an advantage over the other concerning SQ.
 
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The higher end newer turntables you are referring to are not high end but low end entry level tables. The Technics and Dual you noted were made during the heyday of turntables and were mid range level models. Does that help?

So, what is considered a "high end" table these days?
 
You do realize your Technics is DC servo driven and the Dual AC synchronous lol?

Both motors have their advantages and disadvantages.

My Kenwood's are running DC servo motors, the AR and Thorens AC synchronous, I see neither having an advantage over the other concerning SQ.

I knew the Dual used an AC motor. Learned that when I recapped it and had to use X2 mylar film caps. I knew the Technics was a direct drive, but did not know it used a DC Servo motor.

Still doesn't explain the disparity in on-paper measurements between new vs vintage. The SL-D2 sold for $199 in 1980. In today's dollars, that's around $500-$600. $600 turntables built in 2019 don't look as good on paper as an SL-D2. I'm curious why that is the case. What's the difference in the design that makes the SL-D2 (or even the Dual) better on paper?
 
Entry point for new high performance tables is around $1K, and goes up from there. Add a corresponding cartridge and phono stage, now you are at $2K.

The better "mass market" tables from the period when turntables were the primary source device can often outperform new entry level and "near audiophile" tables in the $250-750 range.

That's why good older TTs are so popular...and why prices on them have gone up so much over the past 10 years (keeping pace with the revival of vinyl recordings as a desirable medium in the broader population).

On a related note; it appears to me that the revival is slowing/softening a bit as some of those who jumped in are now realizing they don't really enjoy the water.
 
So, what is considered a "high end" table these days?

There are so many this is difficult to answer. But here are some "non boutique" examples:

Sota Sapphire, Nova, Cosmos, or Millennia
Linn LP-12 Akurate or Klimax
Technics SL-1200G, SP-10R, or SL-1000R
Any table from SME
Any table from Kuzma
VPI Prime and up
Most Clearaudio
Any table from Dr. Feickert
Rega Planar 3 and up

This list is somewhat arbitrary, but gives you some ideas.
 
Not to be a pain, but that doesn't help. What models are those? I'd like to look them up?

And does every high end turntable need to look all shiny and acrylic?

You asked for modern high end tables, if you don't consider these high end tables that's your issue. If you want to know what they are their design makes them easy enough to get info on, as it is for most high end tables. Just type in high end turntables and hit search, easy peasy.

The Caliburn isn't acrylic anything, but I see nothing wrong with having something nice and shiny rather than dull and ugly, your mileage may vary.
 
I knew the Dual used an AC motor. Learned that when I recapped it and had to use X2 mylar film caps. I knew the Technics was a direct drive, but did not know it used a DC Servo motor.

Still doesn't explain the disparity in on-paper measurements between new vs vintage. The SL-D2 sold for $199 in 1980. In today's dollars, that's around $500-$600. $600 turntables built in 2019 don't look as good on paper as an SL-D2. I'm curious why that is the case. What's the difference in the design that makes the SL-D2 (or even the Dual) better on paper?

I wouldn't get all hung up on the numbers, differences in measuring techniques can lead to all kinds of disparities.

Specs mean little, let your ears decide.

If that doesn't help then use the search button here for modern vs vintage, this has been discussed ad nauseam.
 
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Still doesn't explain the disparity in on-paper measurements between new vs vintage. The SL-D2 sold for $199 in 1980. In today's dollars, that's around $500-$600. $600 turntables built in 2019 don't look as good on paper as an SL-D2. I'm curious why that is the case. What's the difference in the design that makes the SL-D2 (or even the Dual) better on paper?

As said by 'grenadeslio', I wouldn't only sit on 'lab specs' to chose a turntable. Although speed constancy and accuracy are of prime importance and so is rumble, vibrations and mechanical noises, the rest is up to one's eye, use and need preferences/requirements and budget. On some old turntables all those specs can be met after tweaking some and upgrade additions...

Back in the seventies with the uprise of those Japanese circuit and servo direct drive turntables aiming to achieve better specs there for lesser money, the development and build of those turntables where done by major companies building them up in such quantities allowing to cut down research and production costs. Mind you these turntables are far less evolutive and tweak able.

The modern contemporary turntables are never so appealing visually to me where I prefer the iconic sixties and early seventies look of the American and European turntables. And those where also produced in quantities allowing "lower" production costs. The turntables build today less and I believe the worker like the designers, bosses, distributors and shops better paid.

As for "lab specs" as such be cautious some maybe. If all were done in the very same conditions using the very same measurements protocoles, maybe they could be given in comparison. Knowing that it's not the case and the decimal margins specs given telling them appart so little sometimes... My caution is to take them with this in mind. Ear taste buds and training is best IMHO.
 
As far as specs go:
I have two Pioneer decks with exactly the same specifications; a PL-530 and a PL-518. They were sold concurrently and are basically the same table except the 530, in addition to a strobe, has a meter to indicate platter speed.

They sound nothing alike! I’m not sure if this is a product of design differences, manufacturing quality control or environmental differences in the life they’ve led.
 
Entry point for new high performance tables is around $1K, and goes up from there. Add a corresponding cartridge and phono stage, now you are at $2K.

The better "mass market" tables from the period when turntables were the primary source device can often outperform new entry level and "near audiophile" tables in the $250-750 range.

That's why good older TTs are so popular...and why prices on them have gone up so much over the past 10 years (keeping pace with the revival of vinyl recordings as a desirable medium in the broader population).

On a related note; it appears to me that the revival is slowing/softening a bit as some of those who jumped in are now realizing they don't really enjoy the water.

I can understand it softening. Vinyl is EXTREMELY in convenient. I still think it's kind of cool. But my physical media of choice is still the CD. I'm still enjoying vinyl. But a lot of the annoyances of vinyl are gone when using cassette or CD, while still giving you physical media.
 
As far as specs go:
I have two Pioneer decks with exactly the same specifications; a PL-530 and a PL-518. They were sold concurrently and are basically the same table except the 530, in addition to a strobe, has a meter to indicate platter speed.

They sound nothing alike! I’m not sure if this is a product of design differences, manufacturing quality control or environmental differences in the life they’ve led.

So, of course I need to ask if they're both using the same cartrdige.

But I also wonder if you had two PL-530s, would they sound identical, or is there some natural variation in all vintage turntables that can affect the sound.

I'm sure there can be variation based on needle wear also. If one stylus is newer than the other, perhaps that adds a variable also.
 
Specs are interesting in the abstract, and can be useful for comparison, but caution is in order. First, vintage machines claiming otherworldly specs were built during a period of vinyl supremacy and a specs 'arms race', such that companies, especially the Japanese, made a big deal out of claiming ever-better specs. Second, those same machines are now 40-50 years old, so who's to say whether the examples any of us end up with can come close to such specs anymore?

Now, can the human ear hear the minute differences claimed in W&F? Maybe. I'm skeptical. Still, there is much to be said for the technologies advanced then, and by the choices they result in for the consumer. Does it matter then that a DD can produce tiny W&F? Yes, if only because it offers choices for the buyer, and because many of those old machines can be had for very little money these days. By the same token, my informal measurements of new budget machines, using a cellphone RPM/W&F app, have yielded numbers that are better than their specs called for.

FWIW, in my experience with machines new and old, belt drive and DD, budget and not-so-budget, I have yet to hear noticeable W&F, although I DO hear differences in noise floor. FWIW, my U-Turn Orbit, a budget keeper IMO, publishes a S/N spec that seems wildly optimistic, considering it uses a hard-mounted motor that obviously adds to the noise floor. So a focus on specs, for my use and hearing capacity, isn't helpful.

I began in the hobby by searching for new machines and value, so I started with the typical budget machines we read about, slab plinth belt drive and DC/MDF/belt drive examples, of which there are many on the market. I tried a new Super OEM DD, I tried a moderately-excellent belt drive with very good specs, and have recently found my way to old suspended belt drives.

Every machine I've used has proved excellent in its own way. As a new hobbyist who required value and simplicity, or would have simply not entered the hobby at all, the U-Turn Orbits and Fluance machines were great in providing good sound and great value. For the hobbyist who stops there, do specs matter? Not IMO. For those of us who are 'in for a pound', there is much to explore, but I still wonder how useful specs are along the way. Can I say whether my two Thorens machines are anywhere near meeting OEM specs? Hell no. Did it matter in the end that my DD turntable provided fantastically low W&F? Not really, for my ears.

For hobbyists like me, the next stop on the journey would be machines like the VPI Scout / Prime, or the Rega Planars 6 or 8. Again, do specs matter there, knowing that machines from VPI and Rega sound very different and that Rega is famous for being off speed from the factory? Not to me. Specs are for the marketers and they were weaponized to differentiate during the heyday of vinyl, but for me aren't particularly useful when making decisions about machines.
 
Specs are interesting in the abstract, and can be useful for comparison, but caution is in order. First, vintage machines claiming otherworldly specs were built during a period of vinyl supremacy and a specs 'arms race', such that companies, especially the Japanese, made a big deal out of claiming ever-better specs. Second, those same machines are now 40-50 years old, so who's to say whether the examples any of us end up with can come close to such specs anymore?

Now, can the human ear hear the minute differences claimed in W&F? Maybe. I'm skeptical. Still, there is much to be said for the technologies advanced then, and by the choices they result in for the consumer. Does it matter then that a DD can produce tiny W&F? Yes, if only because it offers choices for the buyer, and because many of those old machines can be had for very little money these days. By the same token, my informal measurements of new budget machines, using a cellphone RPM/W&F app, have yielded numbers that are better than their specs called for.

FWIW, in my experience with machines new and old, belt drive and DD, budget and not-so-budget, I have yet to hear noticeable W&F, although I DO hear differences in noise floor. FWIW, my U-Turn Orbit, a budget keeper IMO, publishes a S/N spec that seems wildly optimistic, considering it uses a hard-mounted motor that obviously adds to the noise floor. So a focus on specs, for my use and hearing capacity, isn't helpful.

I began in the hobby by searching for new machines and value, so I started with the typical budget machines we read about, slab plinth belt drive and DC/MDF/belt drive examples, of which there are many on the market. I tried a new Super OEM DD, I tried a moderately-excellent belt drive with very good specs, and have recently found my way to old suspended belt drives.

Every machine I've used has proved excellent in its own way. As a new hobbyist who required value and simplicity, or would have simply not entered the hobby at all, the U-Turn Orbits and Fluance machines were great in providing good sound and great value. For the hobbyist who stops there, do specs matter? Not IMO. For those of us who are 'in for a pound', there is much to explore, but I still wonder how useful specs are along the way. Can I say whether my two Thorens machines are anywhere near meeting OEM specs? Hell no. Did it matter in the end that my DD turntable provided fantastically low W&F? Not really, for my ears.

For hobbyists like me, the next stop on the journey would be machines like the VPI Scout / Prime, or the Rega Planars 6 or 8. Again, do specs matter there, knowing that machines from VPI and Rega sound very different and that Rega is famous for being off speed from the factory? Not to me. Specs are for the marketers and they were weaponized to differentiate during the heyday of vinyl, but for me aren't particularly useful when making decisions about machines.

I have ZERO interest in going for a high end turntable. I don't think the difference in wow and flutter between my SL-D2 and any of the turntables I mentioned would be noticeable to anyone playing records. I would just think with 30+ years with technological advancement, modern DC motors would be able to keep a constant speed better than vintage motors from the 70s/80s. Obviously motors have not changed all that much in all these years.

I may be the odd man out here, but one of the things I really like in my turntables is fully automatic features. And you just aren't going to get a "high end" turntable that's fully automatic in modern equipment.

I spoke to a bunch of old retired high-end stereo salesmen, and they told me that 90% of the sound of a turntable is the cartridge/stylus. Buying progressively better turntables was just chasing the other 10%. And for some people that's worth it. For most people it's not. "Back in the day," you could buy a low end turntable and stick an expensive Ortofon on it, and most people were happy. I guess it all depends on your level of obsession. I'm in the "best bang for your buck" camp and let me spend the rest of my money on the music itself.
 
As far as specs go:
I have two Pioneer decks with exactly the same specifications; a PL-530 and a PL-518. They were sold concurrently and are basically the same table except the 530, in addition to a strobe, has a meter to indicate platter speed.

They sound nothing alike! I’m not sure if this is a product of design differences, manufacturing quality control or environmental differences in the life they’ve led.

The 530 has no meter. Perhap you are referring to the 630? Or, from the same product series, the 560?

In any case, are you using the same cartridge on both?
 
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I have ZERO interest in going for a high end turntable. I don't think the difference in wow and flutter between my SL-D2 and any of the turntables I mentioned would be noticeable to anyone playing records. I would just think with 30+ years with technological advancement, modern DC motors would be able to keep a constant speed better than vintage motors from the 70s/80s. Obviously motors have not changed all that much in all these years.

I may be the odd man out here, but one of the things I really like in my turntables is fully automatic features. And you just aren't going to get a "high end" turntable that's fully automatic in modern equipment.

I spoke to a bunch of old retired high-end stereo salesmen, and they told me that 90% of the sound of a turntable is the cartridge/stylus. Buying progressively better turntables was just chasing the other 10%. And for some people that's worth it. For most people it's not. "Back in the day," you could buy a low end turntable and stick an expensive Ortofon on it, and most people were happy. I guess it all depends on your level of obsession. I'm in the "best bang for your buck" camp and let me spend the rest of my money on the music itself.

Salesmen are just that, they tell you what you want to hear to part you from your money. I have 6 tables, and all sound different with some obviously much better than the others.

Started my journey many decades ago with a nice little Dual, then stupidly sold it to jump on the DD bandwagon, huge mistake. A plethora of mediocre direct decks came and went, my music was lost.

At a garage sale I see 3 tables stacked on top of each other, two were junk, the bottom an AR XA. Always a fan of AR speakers I never knew they made tables, but for $15 I figured I had nothing to lose. Ordered a new belt, installed a wood body Grado and was floored, my music was back. The little table that could was my main deck for the next 20yrs. Along the way I picked up a Thorens but the AR was just that much better so the Thorens went to the bedroom system.

As mentioned the AR was my main deck for two decades, around 2014 I decided to give DD another shot. Reason, I came across a Kenwood KD-500 at a great price and was always intrigued by these tables back in the day. Moved my Grado to the big Kenny and the AR had finally met it's match. This led to the purchase of several more direct drive tables, a Mitsubishi DP-EC8, a Kenwood KD770D, and a Technics SL1200MKII. The Technics was the only one to not make the cut, it was moved along. Now before making any comments be advised the Technics was absolutely pristine, pictures can be supplied if required.

The reason I'm telling you this? The table has just as much bearing on SQ as the cartridge if not more. On paper the Technics looks to be as good or better than some of these tables, but it's about the music now isn't it? Installing a record weight helped tighten up the wooly bass (this table absolutely requires one IMO), but the recessed midrange presentation just killed the soundstage.
 
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I have ZERO interest in going for a high end turntable. I don't think the difference in wow and flutter between my SL-D2 and any of the turntables I mentioned would be noticeable to anyone playing records. I would just think with 30+ years with technological advancement, modern DC motors would be able to keep a constant speed better than vintage motors from the 70s/80s. Obviously motors have not changed all that much in all these years.

I may be the odd man out here, but one of the things I really like in my turntables is fully automatic features. And you just aren't going to get a "high end" turntable that's fully automatic in modern equipment.

I spoke to a bunch of old retired high-end stereo salesmen, and they told me that 90% of the sound of a turntable is the cartridge/stylus. Buying progressively better turntables was just chasing the other 10%. And for some people that's worth it. For most people it's not. "Back in the day," you could buy a low end turntable and stick an expensive Ortofon on it, and most people were happy. I guess it all depends on your level of obsession. I'm in the "best bang for your buck" camp and let me spend the rest of my money on the music itself.

You seem to ask questions to which you have already determined the answer. Are you just seeking an argument? Perhaps you would be better served just getting all your questions answered by your old "stereo" store sales people.

If you are happy with your D2, that's great. But you always seem to suggest that your point of view is the only one that makes sense.

Here to learn? Really? Learning takes an open mind.
 
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