A question about new vs vintage turntables

[The Shocker]

Those small shops were the patrons that helped us when we were young. They translated their high end sales into a little extra time, concern, and sometimes a break for us. For me it was music instrument shops when I was in my 20s but yea that same feeling from the little places that have all vanished and the people there that tolerated our ignorance probably just because they could see our enthusiasm.

Where to listen indeed? And where will new kids in their 20s ever hear a nice audio system? I'm not really sure.

The REALLY good small shops knew the gear and knew snake oil. And they could judge their customer. They knew when someone was walking in to buy a $5000 turntable and would accept nothing less, and they knew when your budget was $300, and would get you a good low end table, and smack the best possible cartrdige on it in the budget you had and make you happy too.

All that's left near me now are Best Buy, which sell Audio Technica turntables (not bad per-se, the 120X has a nice feature set), and "high-end" audio stores that sell turntables that start at $5,000 and cartridges that start at $500 or more. There is really no place, at least near me, for someone to walk into and find any kind of "mid-fi" gear, or "best bang for your buck" gear.

It saddens me that even Best Buy only has two extremes. Either mass market overpriced junk, or the Magnolia section, with high end audiophile equipment. Everything in between that has been relegated to online only, at least near me.

 

[timmy.timmy]

Are you asserting that you can reliably hear the difference between .025 and .06% W&F then? How about .06 and .125% I've owned machines that published the spec <.2% W&F, which measured on a phone app at .115%, and I've owned DD publishing a tiny spec, and a high-quality belt-drive that publishes .06%. I have never heard any differences among them in W&F. Noise floor differences, yes. W&F on long, sustained notes/passages? Nope.

Wow and flutter is subtle in general I agree. Unless the turntable has serious flaws. But since I've cured all that on my Thorens belt driven turntable with my external PSU & tachometer combo, I can now also visualise during playback that my W&F is only <0.006%. Much more before although I don't remember how much read my tachometer on such a trial... But most importantly by ear I've gained what I would call a better coherency on the tempo. That which I was achieving to get before with the very same records on my DD turntable as my ear memory recall... Upgrade was mandatory.

Wow and flutter when little might get unnoticed. Especially on lengthy sustained notes as you mention. But I don't have records with such musical arrangement in my collection. So indeed some kind of music on records can live with W&F unnoticed. But not mines for my ears. Now there's the also speed accuracy specification that is most mandatory to imperatively participate in the right rendition of the record's groove read. That speed inaccuracy issue I also had at first with my belt driven turntable. Not anymore And evidently the speed issue is more noticeable than the W&F but still...

 

[GChief]

Everything in between that has been relegated to online only, at least near me.

I have been buying new and used this way for the last 5 yrs, I do my due diligence and have had no disappointments... yet

 

[wushuliu]

You never heard a Technics with a damper or an external psu so my feeling is you have not heard a Technics set up for HiFi. Sl1200mk2 with psu and damper is so close to an sp10mk2 it is not funny.

It's a matter of taste. I bought into the 1200 hype when I first got into vinyl here over 10 years ago. I agree with Mr. Pig and Fremer on the 'lifeless' quality. I thought it was me and my setup. I listened to the advice: I got the damper, I did additional isolation, I eventually got the improved wiring tone-arm. On and on. It still sounded dead. Over time I tried out other 1200s in case the first was a problem with the table itself. I tried different preamps, carts, and speakers. Same results. Other people like it good for them, but the 1200MK2 is my least favorite table and I've heard dozens of vintage tables.

 

[MCM_Fan]

The REALLY good small shops knew the gear and knew snake oil. And they could judge their customer. They knew when someone was walking in to buy a $5000 turntable and would accept nothing less, and they knew when your budget was $300, and would get you a good low end table, and smack the best possible cartrdige on it in the budget you had and make you happy too.

All that's left near me now are Best Buy, which sell Audio Technica turntables (not bad per-se, the 120X has a nice feature set), and "high-end" audio stores that sell turntables that start at $5,000 and cartridges that start at $500 or more. There is really no place, at least near me, for someone to walk into and find any kind of "mid-fi" gear, or "best bang for your buck" gear.

It saddens me that even Best Buy only has two extremes. Either mass market overpriced junk, or the Magnolia section, with high end audiophile equipment. Everything in between that has been relegated to online only, at least near me.

Are there really no shops "near" you that sell serviced used gear? I suppose it's all in how you define "near", but it looks like you're between Philadelphia and Trenton and only about 80 miles from New York City. Too me all those qualify as "near" when it comes to my search for high quality, affordable used gear. I drove 250 miles round trip last March to buy a Harman Kardon T60 turntable with a Grado G2+ cartridge. It is the best sounding turntable I own and a great match for my other vintage high compliance cartridges. I'd do that drive again in a heart beat for a comparable table at a comparable price. I'd gladly drive up to Seattle and back (400+ miles round trip) for the right piece of audio gear at the right price.

I live 20 miles south of Portland, OR and there are multiple dealers in the Portland area (Echo Audio, Fred's Sound of Music and Audio Specialties, to name three) that sell serviced, vintage tables. All three will also service and set up a table, mount and align a cartridge, etc. So, if you get a screaming good deal on craigslist or at a thrift store and can't service it yourself, you have options. The first two, along with others in the area, also sell new tables in the $300 - $500 range. I find it hard to believe there are no comparable dealers in the Philadelphia or New York City areas.

P.S. I only mentioned three, there are more, but those are my favorites of the local shops that service and sell vintage turntables.

 

[cafe latte]

It's a matter of taste. I bought into the 1200 hype when I first got into vinyl here over 10 years ago. I agree with Mr. Pig and Fremer on the 'lifeless' quality. I thought it was me and my setup. I listened to the advice: I got the damper, I did additional isolation, I eventually got the improved wiring tone-arm. On and on. It still sounded dead. Over time I tried out other 1200s in case the first was a problem with the table itself. I tried different preamps, carts, and speakers. Same results. Other people like it good for them, but the 1200MK2 is my least favorite table and I've heard dozens of vintage tables.

Not sure what you are looking for or hearing or think you are hearing. comparing my 6 turntables which are DD, belt and idlers (two idler drives actually) the Technics does not sound dead at all. Speakers are ATC scm100s and preamp is DNM power amp depends on mood, often a mosfet I built or I use a Conrad premier 4 valve amp and its premier 3 preamp. I also have a sl12100G which is a stunning turntable, I will say it is a little wider in its presentation than the sl1200mk2 but we are talking something very subtle. My though is this is possibly the better platter on the G so when I have a moment I will get the glass platter from Kab to see if this brings the mk2 closer to the G. If not it is so very close and a fraction of the price so still happy.
Much is said on forums how a turntable this or that sounds this way or that, but few things are tested with a decent system and multiple carts and everyone's system sounds different . My listening room which I purpose built is 9 meters X 8 meters with few windows as I knew they would mess with the sound. Then you test something with a TPA class D amp and I test with transistors (class A) Mosfets and valves. Interesting how much things change just swapping amps. I also have around 50 carts which I swap around my turntables some sound better one than another so many variables we should be careful to draw conclusions.
Chris

 

[wushuliu]

Not sure what you are looking for or hearing or think you are hearing. comparing my 6 turntables which are DD, belt and idlers (two idler drives actually) the Technics does not sound dead at all. Speakers are ATC scm100s and preamp is DNM power amp depends on mood, often a mosfet I built or I use a Conrad premier 4 valve amp and its premier 3 preamp. I also have a sl12100G which is a stunning turntable, I will say it is a little wider in its presentation than the sl1200mk2 but we are talking something very subtle. My though is this is possibly the better platter on the G so when I have a moment I will get the glass platter from Kab to see if this brings the mk2 closer to the G. If not it is so very close and a fraction of the price so still happy.
Much is said on forums how a turntable this or that sounds this way or that, but few things are tested with a decent system and multiple carts and everyone's system sounds different . My listening room which I purpose built is 9 meters X 8 meters with few windows as I knew they would mess with the sound. Then you test something with a TPA class D amp and I test with transistors (class A) Mosfets and valves. Interesting how much things change just swapping amps. I also have around 50 carts which I swap around my turntables some sound better one than another so many variables we should be careful to draw conclusions.
Chris

Like I said, a matter of taste. I did not have the TPA at that time. Maybe my setup qualified/s as 'decent', maybe it doesn't. If you like the 1200s, great. I don't and don't need to. Plenty of other tables out there.

 

[Van_Isle]

Love 'em or hate 'em .... but you can't ignore 'em.

 

[wushuliu]

Continuing with the topic of the thread, the question I have had a hard time finding the answer to is - what exactly elevates a new <$1500 table from your average, i.e. mid-fi, vintage? Almost all of them are just basic belt drive tables with, at best, an aluminum or acrylic platter and a $100 cart. They aren't even suspended like Thorens, AR, et al. The only potential area of evolution/improvement I can see is the tonearm, but I don't see any real evidence of gains there beyond marketing.

Above $1500 it's an easier call since the platters get really hefty, the motors visibly better, and the tonearms also appear to be of higher quality. Below that, I don't see it.

 

[Van_Isle]

Marketing department.

 

[cafe latte]

Like I said, a matter of taste. I did not have the TPA at that time. Maybe my setup qualified/s as 'decent', maybe it doesn't. If you like the 1200s, great. I don't and don't need to. Plenty of other tables out there.

Just saying if the sl1200 is given optimal conditions and compared with a lots of different carts lightly modded next to some very good turntables it is excellent. Problem is our opinions are made with the here and now with what we have.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

Continuing with the topic of the thread, the question I have had a hard time finding the answer to is - what exactly elevates a new <$1500 table from your average, i.e. mid-fi, vintage? Almost all of them are just basic belt drive tables with, at best, an aluminum or acrylic platter and a $100 cart. They aren't even suspended like Thorens, AR, et al. The only potential area of evolution/improvement I can see is the tonearm, but I don't see any real evidence of gains there beyond marketing.

Above $1500 it's an easier call since the platters get really hefty, the motors visibly better, and the tonearms also appear to be of higher quality. Below that, I don't see it.

New i have only bought my Project rpm 6.1sb which was around 1k at the time and it was junk. My sl1200mk2 was also around 1k and build quality was way way better, but needed to spend another 500 at least to make it really sing. My sl1200G was 6.5k and it has amazing build quality but it also cost a lot more than anything else I have bought new turntable wise. The GR is supposed to have great build quality and sound great and be just behind the G but much cheaper, but cant comment as never heard one. Staying with direct drive my SP120mk2 cost 1k but without an arm or plinth then it needed servicing which I am able to do but this should be considered when buying old direct drives. Then I spent a bunch on an Eminent Technology air arm and built a nice plinth, yes it sound stunning but it cost a lot too when arm and plinth is considered. Lenco and Commonwealth sound amazing of course the Commonwealth is the better of the two, but it needed a complete restoration then a plinth and 12 inch arm. My motor unit was free but so bad it was ready for the dump and it took a lot of time to get it mint like it is now. These go for around 3k in reasonable condition so again not really a cheap option as this is without arm and plinth.
There are still some good vintage tables under 1.5k, but the performance and quality of the new sl1200gr needs to be considered as IMO it is making a lot of turntables look very expensive.
Chris

 

[wushuliu]

Just saying if the sl1200 is given optimal conditions and compared with a lots of different carts lightly modded next to some very good turntables it is excellent. Problem is our opinions are made with the here and now with what we have.
Chris

Yes I get it. I clearly don't have optimal conditions or a 'decent' set-up etc. or I would know how great it is. Look, I don't like it. Hell I even watched a Youtube video of a 1200 comparison recently and instantly recognized the presentation and had the same response. I just don't care for it. Others don't either. And that's okay.

I am however a fan of the suspended Technics. I thought those sounded excellent.

 

[cafe latte]

Yes I get it. I clearly don't have optimal conditions or a 'decent' set-up etc. or I would know how great it is. Look, I don't like it. Hell I even watched a Youtube video of a 1200 comparison recently and instantly recognized the presentation and had the same response. I just don't care for it. Others don't either. And that's okay.

I am however a fan of the suspended Technics. I thought those sounded excellent.

Suspended should not sound any better if non suspended is on a decent support. How can you possibly hear a difference on youtube at 160Kbs, impossible.
Not saying you set up is not good, not my intention just if these turntables are given optimal differences are small. We often like turntable wise what the turntable adds as it is missing in our setup. Example if hifi lacks a bit of presence and the turntable adds falsely that aspect we will prefer turntables that sound that way even if it is distortion added. The sl1200mk2 is far from dead if it is sounding this way there is another reason or something that your vintage are adding that is filling a gap that should not be there.
Chris

 

[wushuliu]

Suspended should not sound any better if non suspended is on a decent support. How can you possibly hear a difference on youtube at 160Kbs, impossible.
Not saying you set up is not good, not my intention just if these turntables are given optimal differences are small. We often like turntable wise what the turntable adds as it is missing in our setup. Example if hifi lacks a bit of presence and the turntable adds falsely that aspect we will prefer turntables that sound that way even if it is distortion added. The sl1200mk2 is far from dead if it is sounding this way there is another reason or something that your vintage are adding that is filling a gap that should not be there.
Chris

Since I'm not in the business of passing personal opinion as fact, let's just end our discussion here.

 

[cafe latte]

Since I'm not in the business of passing personal opinion as fact, let's just end our discussion here.

That is fine all I am saying is you are comparing turntables on youtube at 160Kb per second which is massive compression you really cant hear anything this is fact no personal opinion. Listen to 360Kb per second and gain is huge and it is still very compressed. Suspended turntables are made to isolate, if you have a solid floor and brick built house and turntable is on a frame on the wall or a decent turntable shelf there is really no gain from a suspended turntable actually suspended have some issues re tracking the stylus in the groove which are not ideal. It is not an opinion it is fact that if a non suspended turntable is isolated and mounted correctly there is no gain from suspended. Some suspended are more quiet than other non suspended as motor can be isolated from arm, but with turntable like the sl1200 mk2 GR and G, even the SP10mk2 this is a non issues as these turntables are vanishingly quiet in this respect.
Not my intention to annoy you, all I was saying is if all else is right you really should not be hearing big differences between reasonable turntables whatever drive method or make unless something is wrong. What I most often hear with turntables is colour ie bloom added mid and bass kind of like removing the wadding from a speaker which sounds great until you realise the extra music you can hear is doubling distortion. This is the most common thing we hear with turntables this is the music vibrating the box and then the plinth and this getting back to the stylus. A "dead" plinth may well sound more dead but this really is a good thing as the extra information is not good as it is distortion.
Anyway like I said not here to battle just a turntable discussion.
Chris

 

[timmy.timmy]

Since I'm not in the business of passing personal opinion as fact, let's just end our discussion here.

FWIW; I didn't even got there saying that in such right feel (IMO) but ended up there all the same... 'Applaud'. And I still don't like the MKII SL-1200 in comparison with other turntables (sonic signature if ever) and nothing is going to change that or me.

No matter what my ears are hearing wrong on my system during my home playback sessions our when I DJ out on other systems, I believe it's not for me. Saying this after having owning one MKII previously as well. For long and believing it was the 'utter' turntable on a 'budget' (second hand one' then. Only after a direct comparison and accepted let down of preconceived 'superstition' I got to love a modest belt drive on suspension !

 

[cafe latte]

FWIW; I didn't even got there saying that in such right feel (IMO) but ended up there all the same... 'Applaud'. And I still don't like the MKII SL-1200 in comparison with other turntables (sonic signature if ever) and nothing is going to change that or me.

No matter what my ears are hearing wrong on my system during my home playback sessions our when I DJ out on other systems, I believe it's not for me. Saying this after having owning one MKII previously as well. For long and believing it was the 'utter' turntable on a 'budget' (second hand one' then. Only after a direct comparison and accepted let down of preconceived 'superstition' I got to love a modest belt drive on suspension !

The sl1200mk2 needs the external psu and damper. With that and isolation footers on a wall shelf if all else is right the sl1200mk2 can be stunning. My sl1200mk2 sits next to my Commonwealth in a 45kg plinth with a 12 inch Jelco arm, on the other side is my sl1200G which is the new 6.5k sl1200. Next to that is my SP10mk2 and the air arm in that ( Eminent Technology) cosy much more than the whole sl1210m2. There is also a Lenco, Denon and an Orpheus Silex with a lovely Hadcock arm. The sl1210mk2 is very very close to the SP10mk2 and also not too far behind the G which cost 6.5 times more.
All the turntables I have sound amazing, tried them all with various carts as I have around 50 carts. Most here blind fold would not know which turntable was which despite people having strong opinions on this or that brand. Had my Decca super gold on my sl1210mk2 a few days ago, that is a holy crap combination. Yes a 2k cart but scary good on a Technics.
Chris

 

[Decibel_116]

Yes I get it. I clearly don't have optimal conditions or a 'decent' set-up etc. or I would know how great it is. Look, I don't like it. Hell I even watched a Youtube video of a 1200 comparison recently and instantly recognized the presentation and had the same response. I just don't care for it. Others don't either. And that's okay.

I am however a fan of the suspended Technics. I thought those sounded excellent.

I will have to second that notion. I have a couple SL-QX200 decks that sound amazing - and they happen to be P-mount as well. Fun stuff.

 

[cafe latte]

My vintage and new