A question about new vs vintage turntables

[Grenadeslio]

There’s not much difference in prices for used F-8 & F-9’s on eBay. It looks like they use the same stylus too.
The used prices are reasonable when compared to $1200 NOS retail. I’ve bought one used cartridge from the marketplace section here. The seller was a most genuine fellow and his description was correct, in that the cart was barely played. What he didn’t disclose was a difference in output between the channels and a cantilever that wasn’t square with the body. Neither of these made the cartridge defective, but not a great example of that particular model either.
My phono stage handles LOMC and I’m inclined to go that route, but that’s more a learned bias from reading forums than any empirical evidence. Then there’s the phono stage; on my re-capped Yamaha C-4 I have resistance loading and capacitance options on mm that I don’t have on the LOMC input. I’d like to find an F-8 or F-9 with a LC stylus from a trusted source, at a price I can afford!!

I’m also a pretty patient fellow, so I’m reading and co-opting others knowledge and experiences and guessing the right cart for my arm and hip pocket will show up some day!

Thanks to you and majick for sharing your knowledge, I hadn’t looked at these Grace carts... makes sense they would be a good match.

one question... do these come with any type of stylus guard?

The stylus are not interchangeable between the two cartridges, round peg square hole kind of thing. And just because they're asking those prices doesn't mean they're getting them lol. I paid less than $250 for each of mine, but admittedly that was about 3yrs ago.

 

[Grenadeslio]

Grenadeslio, OT but earlier in this thread you mentioned the following:

"This led to the purchase of several more direct drive tables, a Mitsubishi DP-EC8, a Kenwood KD770D, and a Technics SL1200MKII. The Technics was the only one to not make the cut, it was moved along. "

Is the reason you moved along the technics and not the mitsubishi is that the mitsubishi sounded better? The reason I am asking is that I own the same mitsubishi tt and I also own a technics sl1700 (similar to the 1200). The technics needs some work (speed fluctuates) so I am not able to do a comparison but I often wonder how the mitsubishi would perform in comparison to the 1700.

Kept the Mitsubishi for a couple of reasons, first it's just so awesome to use. All of my other tables are completely manual except the KD-770D which is only semi auto, shut off lift arm at record's end. So having a table with a servo controlled arm is just so novel.

Second, I think it's a cool looking table the plastic aside.

Third, I prefer a straight arm when given the choice.

Fourth, though I feel the two decks are about on the same level overall, the Mitsubishi won out slightly on SQ.

The Mitsubishi has way more plastic than I like, the Technics is more accommodating on cartridge choice. But the cartridge choice thing didn't play as much of a part in the decision as it might have if it didn't so nicely accommodate the NOS Pickering XV15 625E I have mounted.

 

[Grenadeslio]

I see NOS F-9L’s at $1200 bucks! That’s a bit out of my budget. I hesitate to buy a cartridge on the used market.

You could also look into purchasing one with a damaged stylus/cantilever and have it retipped. There's a guy on eBay that retipped my Denon DL301 for me, I'm sure he can set you up for a hell of a lot less.

 

[pyoung272]

Grenadeslio, Thanks for your input on the mitsubishi. Like you, I too find the mitsubishi has features not commonly found on other tt (semi auto, servco arm) and I also like its small footprint. The only thing I do not like is the headshell as it is not a standard HS so replacements are hard to find.

 

[Grenadeslio]

There’s not much difference in prices for used F-8 & F-9’s on eBay. It looks like they use the same stylus too.
The used prices are reasonable when compared to $1200 NOS retail. I’ve bought one used cartridge from the marketplace section here. The seller was a most genuine fellow and his description was correct, in that the cart was barely played. What he didn’t disclose was a difference in output between the channels and a cantilever that wasn’t square with the body. Neither of these made the cartridge defective, but not a great example of that particular model either.
My phono stage handles LOMC and I’m inclined to go that route, but that’s more a learned bias from reading forums than any empirical evidence. Then there’s the phono stage; on my re-capped Yamaha C-4 I have resistance loading and capacitance options on mm that I don’t have on the LOMC input. I’d like to find an F-8 or F-9 with a LC stylus from a trusted source, at a price I can afford!!

I’m also a pretty patient fellow, so I’m reading and co-opting others knowledge and experiences and guessing the right cart for my arm and hip pocket will show up some day!

Thanks to you and majick for sharing your knowledge, I hadn’t looked at these Grace carts... makes sense they would be a good match.

one question... do these come with any type of stylus guard?

You must be looking at a different eBay, I'm seeing NOS f8 cartridge/stylus in the $250 - $300 range, that's a killer price for such a great cartridge.

 

[The Shocker]

Where did I mention listening before purchase?

As I've mentioned before, I've purchased a number of tables, some are still with me, some moved along, and I made money every time, or it was gifted to a family member. Those gifted were good enough to make the cut, I would never give someone a table I don't like, the others were sold. Never purchased a deck to make a profit though, only to see if I wanted to keep it.

So, you're buying a turntable without having heard it, and if you don't like it once you get it home, you will sell it used or gift it to someone? That doesn't seem like a practical solution for anyone except those with a lot of disposable income on their hands.

 

[Grenadeslio]

So, you're buying a turntable without having heard it, and if you don't like it once you get it home, you will sell it used or gift it to someone? That doesn't seem like a practical solution for anyone except those with a lot of disposable income on their hands.

You apparently didn't read the whole post if you think that. Here it is again so you can have a second chance at it.

"As I've mentioned before, I've purchased a number of tables, some are still with me, some moved along, and I made money every time, or it was gifted to a family member. Those gifted were good enough to make the cut, I would never give someone a table I don't like, the others were sold. Never purchased a deck to make a profit though, only to see if I wanted to keep it."

I highlighted certain areas you obviously missed or just didn't comprehend.

As you can see I never gifted one I didn't like as you stated
I made money on every table I sold

There's no law stating you must gift family members a table so looks like you could actually make some money while hunting for that just right deck for you. See, no large disposable income needed.

And here's the really great part, every table I've kept or gifted are now worth considerably more than I paid for them, as it is with most of my gear, nice little savings account, sounds like a win win to me, you might want to try it.

I'm a 62yr old working electrician, you think at my age I would still be working in construction if I didn't need to lol? Disposable income, now that's funny.

 

[The Shocker]

You apparently didn't read the whole post if you think that.

Well, you did say "Where did I mention listening before purchase?" That implies you're buying tables based on reviews and recommendations, as opposed to auditions.

 

[The Shocker]

Most of my gear purchases have been based on the rationale noted by @Hifiler above, starting with very affordable budget machines and related equipment that were endorsed and discussed by posters in AK and other relevant forums. I've moved through multiple pieces of equipment but have yet to be disappointed. I have never set foot in a HiFi store and don't think I would even if I had one nearby. The hobbyist can make decisions and validate them, and places like AK allow for much collaboration and comparing of notes along the way.

I used to say some of the same things as OP, that I was entirely happy at the budget end of things in the hobby, but have learned (as has my wallet) that almost by definition, the hobbyist who cares enough to discuss these things on AK (and related forums) is very unlikely to stand pat long term.

I've been happy at what some consider the budget end for the last 5 years. I don't expect that to change any time soon. I'd rather spend the money on the music, and get best bang for your buck gear.

But everyone is different.

 

[Grenadeslio]

Well, you did say "Where did I mention listening before purchase?" That implies you're buying tables based on reviews and recommendations, as opposed to auditions.

I've edited the post, read it again.

It implies nothing, I never mentioned my criteria for selecting the tables I purchase, now did I?

I'm through here, tired of beating my head on the wall.

You've made up your mind and want no assistance even if you pretend to ask for it.

And if you think bottom tier gear is best bang for the buck you're sadly VERY mistaken.

 

[jobrewer1983]

You do realize your Technics is DC servo driven and the Dual AC synchronous lol?

Both motors have their advantages and disadvantages.

My Kenwood's are running DC servo motors, the AR and Thorens AC synchronous, I see neither having an advantage over the other concerning SQ.

Well said ^^

 

[Mister Pig]

So, you're buying a turntable without having heard it, and if you don't like it once you get it home, you will sell it used or gift it to someone? That doesn't seem like a practical solution for anyone except those with a lot of disposable income on their hands.

Eh I bought a used pair of speakers at $8k and it was one of my better purchases, they were a couple of years old and debuted in Japan with a $21k msrp. Same with a used cartridge with a msrp of $6k, and a pre amp that sold for $12k. Another used cartridge with a $4.3k msrp. A tone arm with msrp of $5.3 k. I have done well on the used market without auditions. You do have to research products and make insightful and well reasoned purchases with a bit of speculative bravado.

Cheers
Mister Pig

 

[Hifiler]

Hifiler, I see hi fi events advertised kind of regularly in Northern Va. I’m in the south central part of the state... 20 miles off the Blue Ridge Parkway!

I definitely recommend checking some of them out. We have a pretty good local scene in Iowa too. People like us are everywhere I think!

 

[GChief]

Eh I bought a used pair of speakers at $8k and it was one of my better purchases, they were a couple of years old and debuted in Japan with a $21k msrp. Same with a used cartridge with a msrp of $6k, and a pre amp that sold for $12k. Another used cartridge with a $4.3k msrp. A tone arm with msrp of $5.3 k. I have done well on the used market without auditions. You do have to research products and make insightful and well reasoned purchases with a bit of speculative bravado.

Cheers
Mister Pig

^^^ while my stuff is all “midfi” at best, none of it was auditioned before purchase and I am completely happy. Last set of speakers I bought where listened to on pick up to show they worked, they had already been paid for and it was not an audition.

 

[The Shocker]

Ok, after 5 pages of discussions, many wandering all over the place, let's try and loop it back around.

Some points of reminder:

1. Numbers don't tell the whole story when it comes to turntable quality.
2. In the heydey of vinyl music (70s and 80s), there was an arms race to get better numbers

What's the cutoff for acceptable wow and flutter and rumble numbers. I'm looking for a "this number or lower is fine. Below this number, it's inaudible."

 

[jobrewer1983]

Ok, after 5 pages of discussions, many wandering all over the place, let's try and loop it back around.

Some points of reminder:

1. Numbers don't tell the whole story when it comes to turntable quality.
2. In the heydey of vinyl music (70s and 80s), there was an arms race to get better numbers

What's the cutoff for acceptable wow and flutter and rumble numbers. I'm looking for a "this number or lower is fine. Below this number, it's inaudible."

In the heydey of vinyl music (70s and 80s), there was an arms race to get better numbers

True but the W&F meters have not changed...

 

[JMelton]

I pine for the days of the stereo specialty shop... sales and repair. I bought my first piece of equipment from The West End Stereo Exchange. (A Kenwood receiver I still have!)... I was trying to figure out how to carry it the two miles home on my 10 speed, when the owner said c’mon and put it in his car, my bike in his trunk and drove me home!
They were dealers for Mcintosh, Sansui and Bang & Olufson, lots of used stuff and he let stupid kids like me spend lots of time listening to stuff he knew we couldn’t afford.
Those days are gone... so the “or you could listen to it” reply begs the question WHERE?

Those small shops were the patrons that helped us when we were young. They translated their high end sales into a little extra time, concern, and sometimes a break for us. For me it was music instrument shops when I was in my 20s but yea that same feeling from the little places that have all vanished and the people there that tolerated our ignorance probably just because they could see our enthusiasm.

Where to listen indeed? And where will new kids in their 20s ever hear a nice audio system? I'm not really sure.

 

[Johnny B]

What's the cutoff for acceptable wow and flutter and rumble numbers. I'm looking for a "this number or lower is fine. Below this number, it's inaudible."

That depends on how sensitive you are to either. The better your sense of pitch, the more likely you are to hear any wow and flutter. The more you listen to something like piano music that shows the wow and flutter more, the lower wow and flutter you’re going to tolerate. The more the ambient noise in your space, the higher rumble number you’ll tolerate, or notice. If you have a crappy, noisy amp, turntable rumble may not be an issue because it’s quieter than the amp.

Only you can determine how much you will accept.

 

[timmy.timmy]

Ok, after 5 pages of discussions, many wandering all over the place, let's try and loop it back around.

Some points of reminder:

1. Numbers don't tell the whole story when it comes to turntable quality.
2. In the heydey of vinyl music (70s and 80s), there was an arms race to get better numbers

What's the cutoff for acceptable wow and flutter and rumble numbers. I'm looking for a "this number or lower is fine. Below this number, it's inaudible."

You may have preferences for drive and build turntables systems from minimal to magistral build (bling-bling or humble and if ever contemporary looks or "older") offering different sonic signatures accordingly indeed, manual, semi or fully automatic (in regards to one's need, use and habit), but W&F are measurable (and heard in my experience) so not to argue; RPM'S are just that, precise and continuous or nots. Voilà !

 

[DavidTT]

Are you asserting that you can reliably hear the difference between .025 and .06% W&F then? How about .06 and .125% I've owned machines that published the spec <.2% W&F, which measured on a phone app at .115%, and I've owned DD publishing a tiny spec, and a high-quality belt-drive that publishes .06%. I have never heard any differences among them in W&F. Noise floor differences, yes. W&F on long, sustained notes/passages? Nope.