A question about new vs vintage turntables

[The Shocker]

Years ago I observed that a turntable was a prime example of systems engineering, where the whole could be better or worse than the sum of its parts depending on how the trade-offs were managed. Here's the list I came up with of critical turntable functions:

A turntable and arm must:

• Provide a stable support for the record
• Rotate the record in the proper direction at a consistent and accurate speed
• Support the cartridge in the proper geometrical relationship to the record groove
• Allow the stylus to track the groove freely
• Provide consistent down-force at the stylus to maintain groove contact and preload the stylus suspension as specified by the cartridge manufacturer
• Compensate for any lateral forces generated by the cartridge support (e.g. skating force in a pivoted arm)
• Isolate the stylus from drive system noise and vibration, including bearing axial and radial runout that is perceived as rumble and noise generated by the drive motor and its speed-regulating system (pulleys, belts, idlers, servo circuits, etc.)
• Isolate the stylus from environmental noises including structure-borne and airborne vibrations
• Provide a reliable, low-noise electrical connection between the cartridge and the gain element that it drives (usually a preamp or an MC step-up transformer)
• Manage mechanical resonances in the system by moving them to frequencies where they will not impair the system's function or by applying appropriate levels of damping.

This is a tall order, and it explains why so few turntables and arms do an outstanding job of recovering the modulation from the record groove without adding or subtracting information. The designer of a turntable priced in the high five figures or more has plenty of latitude to solve all of these problems, and if he's lucky he can even amortize his development and tooling costs over his first year's production of ten or twelve units. The designer of a lower-cost turntable doesn't have the luxury of applying an expensive brute-force solution to each of these problems. His job is to make intelligent trade-offs, deciding which performance parameters are most important and allocating his limited budget to achieve good performance in those areas and performance that is at least acceptable in each of the other areas.​

I went on to observe that too many modern affordable turntables mismanaged the trade-off by putting too little money into speed accuracy and consistency -- an observation that I still believe to be accurate.

Speed accuracy and consistency is a quantifiable number you can put on a website and print in a brochure. That's probably why they do it. I can see how the rest of it all is important, but how you measure that and list it on a brochure so the average consumer can understand? You'd need to write a pretty big pamphlet.

 

[Hifiler]

I can see how the rest of it all is important, but how you measure that and list it on a brochure so the average consumer can understand? You'd need to write a pretty big pamphlet.

Or you could listen to it.

 

[Grenadeslio]

Or you could listen to it.

Exactly, at the end of the day you'll need to sit down and listen. If not getting it the OP just needs to look in on any thread involving Technics tables and see the differing opinions.

 

[Buttercup]

Or you could listen to it.

I pine for the days of the stereo specialty shop... sales and repair. I bought my first piece of equipment from The West End Stereo Exchange. (A Kenwood receiver I still have!)... I was trying to figure out how to carry it the two miles home on my 10 speed, when the owner said c’mon and put it in his car, my bike in his trunk and drove me home!
They were dealers for Mcintosh, Sansui and Bang & Olufson, lots of used stuff and he let stupid kids like me spend lots of time listening to stuff he knew we couldn’t afford.
Those days are gone... so the “or you could listen to it” reply begs the question WHERE?

 

[The Shocker]

Exactly, at the end of the day you'll need to sit down and listen. If not getting it the OP just needs to look in on any thread involving Technics tables and see the differing opinions.

You could. but.....

I live 5 minutes from Philadelphia, which is, I think the 4th largest city in the US, and I couldn't tell you where there is a store that sells turntables. I found one, but it's 45 minutes away in the distant western suburbs. The days of just listening to it are long gone sadly.

And, if you can find a store, they're going to tell you what to listen for, which will automatically bias you. In a perfect world, you walk into a room with 10 turntables and one album and go crazy for 30 minutes.

 

[Hifiler]

Those days are gone... so the “or you could listen to it” reply begs the question WHERE?

Preferably in your own system.

But before you get something home, there are still plenty of options. I've heard gear at friend's houses, local dealers, local audio get-togethers, audio shows, and at manufacturers themselves.

I see you are in Virginia. Capital Audiofest was just this past weekend in Rockville, Maryland. That would have been a great opportunity to see and hear some gear and meet the people that design and build it.

But given all that, I've bought plenty of gear "site unseen" based on reviews, recommendations, discussion on sites like this, and based on reputation. And in the end, what it sounds like in your system is what matters.

That is a great story BTW. Reminds me of the time my friends and I blew the fuses in my father's Klipschorns, and had to ride our bikes to the stereo store to get them replaced before he came home from work.

 

[DavidTT]

Most of my gear purchases have been based on the rationale noted by @Hifiler above, starting with very affordable budget machines and related equipment that were endorsed and discussed by posters in AK and other relevant forums. I've moved through multiple pieces of equipment but have yet to be disappointed. I have never set foot in a HiFi store and don't think I would even if I had one nearby. The hobbyist can make decisions and validate them, and places like AK allow for much collaboration and comparing of notes along the way.

I used to say some of the same things as OP, that I was entirely happy at the budget end of things in the hobby, but have learned (as has my wallet) that almost by definition, the hobbyist who cares enough to discuss these things on AK (and related forums) is very unlikely to stand pat long term.

Preferably in your own system.

But before you get something home, there are still plenty of options. I've heard gear at friend's houses, local dealers, local audio get-togethers, audio shows, and at manufacturers themselves.

I see you are in Virginia. Capital Audiofest was just this past weekend in Rockville, Maryland. That would have been a great opportunity to see and hear some gear and meet the people that design and build it.

But given all that, I've bought plenty of gear "site unseen" based on reviews, recommendations, discussion on sites like this, and based on reputation. And in the end, what it sounds like in your system is what matters.

That is a great story BTW. Reminds me of the time my friends and I blew the fuses in my father's Klipschorns, and had to ride our bikes to the stereo store to get them replaced before he came home from work.

 

[Grenadeslio]

You could. but.....

I live 5 minutes from Philadelphia, which is, I think the 4th largest city in the US, and I couldn't tell you where there is a store that sells turntables. I found one, but it's 45 minutes away in the distant western suburbs. The days of just listening to it are long gone sadly.

And, if you can find a store, they're going to tell you what to listen for, which will automatically bias you. In a perfect world, you walk into a room with 10 turntables and one album and go crazy for 30 minutes.

Where did I mention listening before purchase?

As I've mentioned before, I've purchased a number of tables, some are still with me, some moved along, and I made money every time, or it was gifted to a family member. Those gifted were good enough to make the cut, I would never give someone a table I don't like, the others were sold. Never purchased a deck to make a profit though, only to see if I wanted to keep it.

 

[JoeESP9]

You could. but.....

I live 5 minutes from Philadelphia, which is, I think the 4th largest city in the US, and I couldn't tell you where there is a store that sells turntables. I found one, but it's 45 minutes away in the distant western suburbs. The days of just listening to it are long gone sadly.

And, if you can find a store, they're going to tell you what to listen for, which will automatically bias you. In a perfect world, you walk into a room with 10 turntables and one album and go crazy for 30 minutes.

There are several that come to mind:
David Lewis Audio, 8010 Bustleton Ave, Philadelphia.
Chestnut Hill/Community Audio, 8022 Germantown Ave.
Also, The Cable Company in New Hope

 

[Buttercup]

Preferably in your own system.

But before you get something home, there are still plenty of options. I've heard gear at friend's houses, local dealers, local audio get-togethers, audio shows, and at manufacturers themselves.

I see you are in Virginia. Capital Audiofest was just this past weekend in Rockville, Maryland. That would have been a great opportunity to see and hear some gear and meet the people that design and build it.

But given all that, I've bought plenty of gear "site unseen" based on reviews, recommendations, discussion on sites like this, and based on reputation. And in the end, what it sounds like in your system is what matters.

That is a great story BTW. Reminds me of the time my friends and I blew the fuses in my father's Klipschorns, and had to ride our bikes to the stereo store to get them replaced before he came home from work.

I drove 4hours each way for my DP-75 (with speed issues) with a Grace G-704 tonearm, all on reputation. The price was right and I figured the tonearm was worth the money. For the first time in my life, I understood the terms; soundstage, imaging, noise floor!
So of course you are right, and usually a piece of gears reputation comports with its performance.

Your dad had/has Klipschorns... so this audio bug is in your DNA!

 

[Grenadeslio]

I drove 4hours each way for my DP-75 (with speed issues) with a Grace G-704 tonearm, all on reputation. The price was right and I figured the tonearm was worth the money. For the first time in my life, I understood the terms; soundstage, imaging, noise floor!
So of course you are right, and usually a piece of gears reputation comports with its performance.

Your dad had/has Klipschorns... so this audio bug is in your DNA!

Gotta love a Grace arm, wait until you have a chance to hear it with a Grace cartridge if you don't have one already.

 

[Buttercup]

Hifiler, I see hi fi events advertised kind of regularly in Northern Va. I’m in the south central part of the state... 20 miles off the Blue Ridge Parkway!

 

[Buttercup]

Gotta love a Grace arm, wait until you have a chance to hear it with a Grace cartridge if you don't have one already.

I’m in the market for a new cart for this arm. I’ve been using a Denon DL-103r.
Thanks for the tip, I’ll research the Grace carts!

 

[Grenadeslio]

I’m in the market for a new cart for this arm. I’ve been using a Denon DL-103r.
Thanks for the tip, I’ll research the Grace carts!

They're not cheap, especially the f9 variants and later, but don't count out the f8 models, I have two and they're quite special. The f8's are not cheap either, but keep in mind many consider the Grace cartridges possibly the best MM ever made.

I was lucky enough to grab a NOS f8-L10' Advanced Luminal Trace 10th anniversary edition with stylus, and later a NOS f8-C Custom. The stylus are interchangeable so I keep the anniversary cartridge installed and switch between stylus. There's definitely a different presentation between the two, with neither being superior to the other.

The f8-L10'

Advanced Luminal Trace stylus


Custom stylus


The synergy of having a cartridge on the arm it was designed for can not be denied.

 

[likebike23]

I read these posts and ponder the specs and it makes me wonder. I've read an old HiFi magazine from the early 60's and they were talking about wow and flutter and rumble specs back then. They also reviewed music and it was all classical.

I don't listen to classical music often, but know that there are quiet passages where rumble might be distracting. There also can be sustained piano or stringed instrument notes where excessive wow and flutter would be noticable. For those that listen to this type of music I would imagine that knowing these specs, and having a table with good specs would make a real difference. Does that mean it matters or should matter to everyone? Nope.

I mainly listen to rock with some blues, jazz, soul, disco, hip hop, and metal mixed in. I currently own a dozen idler, belt, and direct drive tables. All of the tables are vintage, fixed by me, fully functioning, and running well. They have some varience to one another when it comes to rumble an wow and flutter.

Honestly the tables with more rumble are not distracting one bit to me. My preferred music is louder than any rumble coming from the table and I don't pay attention to "between the tracks". For me I pay attention to the overall presentation and punchiness to the sound.

Wow and flutter does matter to me as I find pitch variences annoying. Thankfully none of my tables has enough pitch varience to be bothersome with my preferred music.

So specs are all well and good, but at the end of the day it isn't the end all for me. My favorite tables are an Elac Miracord 10H with a Shure M44E. It is noticably more authoritative and punchy than any of my tables and I dig that. My AR-TX with a Shure M91 is also awesome with a nice quiet background and a really mellow analog presentation. One is an idler and the other a belt drive and each is different than the other but I dig them both. If I were only going on specs would I want an Elac Miracord 10H? Probably not.

I would also like to mention the elephant in the room that never seems to be brought up. The friction of the stylus in the groove is going to create noise between tracks. It does it on my quietest table, it's just there. I believe playing records wet was a thing people did/do to reduce this effect. Let's face it vinyl isn't perfect, but it has a very enjoyable sound and ritual to it that I love. If I had to guess I would say that new, vintage, midfi, HiFi enthusiasts can all agree on this. So, I don't see a need to argue or get upset. We all dig vinyl and turntables and how we do it shouldn't matter.

 

[Buttercup]

I see NOS F-9L’s at $1200 bucks! That’s a bit out of my budget. I hesitate to buy a cartridge on the used market.

 

[majick47]

Buttercup since the time the Grace cartridges/tonearms hit the shores of the USA they have been highly regarded. Recommend you check with SoundSmith to see what he has in stock for new F9 Grace cartridges he mfg. Another option would be to purchase a Grace F9 body and then purchase a new F9 stylus from Sound Smith. That Grace 704 arm really deserves a better cartridge, the Grace 704 and the Denon DP-75 will sing even sweeter, a terrific combination of table/tonearm/cartridge. All three are winners that would be difficult to match.

 

[Grenadeslio]

I see NOS F-9L’s at $1200 bucks! That’s a bit out of my budget. I hesitate to buy a cartridge on the used market.

Look at the f8 as I mentioned.

 

[Buttercup]

Look at the f8 as I mentioned.

There’s not much difference in prices for used F-8 & F-9’s on eBay. It looks like they use the same stylus too.
The used prices are reasonable when compared to $1200 NOS retail. I’ve bought one used cartridge from the marketplace section here. The seller was a most genuine fellow and his description was correct, in that the cart was barely played. What he didn’t disclose was a difference in output between the channels and a cantilever that wasn’t square with the body. Neither of these made the cartridge defective, but not a great example of that particular model either.
My phono stage handles LOMC and I’m inclined to go that route, but that’s more a learned bias from reading forums than any empirical evidence. Then there’s the phono stage; on my re-capped Yamaha C-4 I have resistance loading and capacitance options on mm that I don’t have on the LOMC input. I’d like to find an F-8 or F-9 with a LC stylus from a trusted source, at a price I can afford!!

I’m also a pretty patient fellow, so I’m reading and co-opting others knowledge and experiences and guessing the right cart for my arm and hip pocket will show up some day!

Thanks to you and majick for sharing your knowledge, I hadn’t looked at these Grace carts... makes sense they would be a good match.

one question... do these come with any type of stylus guard?

 

[pyoung272]

Grenadeslio, OT but earlier in this thread you mentioned the following:

"This led to the purchase of several more direct drive tables, a Mitsubishi DP-EC8, a Kenwood KD770D, and a Technics SL1200MKII. The Technics was the only one to not make the cut, it was moved along. "

Is the reason you moved along the technics and not the mitsubishi is that the mitsubishi sounded better? The reason I am asking is that I own the same mitsubishi tt and I also own a technics sl1700 (similar to the 1200). The technics needs some work (speed fluctuates) so I am not able to do a comparison but I often wonder how the mitsubishi would perform in comparison to the 1700.