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A question about new vs vintage turntables

Some might say the difference between ,a mid range table an a high end table is $$10,000.00 dollar. Some might say $6000.00 I. say anything thing that can out perform the current SME bottom of the line TT is high end. Its not like the good old days when you could buy a Thorens. A new TD 125 with an SME arm and a V-15 for under $500.00 dollars.
 
spark1 said:
The 530 has no meter. Perhap you are referring to the 630? Or, from the same product series, the 560?

In any case, are you using the same cartridge on both?
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Sorry, it is a PL-560, not a 530... my bad.
I used the same cartridge on the same headshell to compare the two decks. Both decks are enjoyable, and the difference is not subjective it is immediately noticeable.

It would be a fun experiment to do a side by side comparison of multiple examples of identical models.

I use a Denon in my main rig and one of the Pioneers in a second system. The Pioneer I’m using is the deck with lesser sq, it has a more damped sound. I chose this deck because the others end of record auto return is clunky and cheap sounding... it impacts the experience.

There are many factors in enjoying a TT;
I love a strobe, I enjoy the slow “needle drop” from using the cueing lever, I think decks without a dust cover look super cool. The new shiny decks in red, blue, white, green and black with fat straight tone arms are a badass look.
I owned a different fully automatic Pioneer deck in the 80’s, it had micro touch buttons and a silent start/stop sequence... too cool! Lots of good sounding decks out there, with the right cartridge match and a good configurable phono stage, you can get great sound out of almost any of them... choose one that all the other stuff blows your skirt up too.
 
Interesting, as the 518 and 560 are quite similar, other than full auto and quartz lock on the 560. I would think there is something "wrong" with one of them if they sound obviously different (assuming same amplification, speakers and placement).
 
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vinylkid58 said:
Complete and utter nonsense. Ask a retired engineer the same question, and you'll get a very different answer. Who are you going to believe?

jeff
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Mind you that the cartridge is the only component on a turntable (not counting those with integrated preamp) that picks up the groove signal, transform it into energy and amplify it first. All tonearm and turntable manufacturers, designers or engineers can agree to that most logically.

Yet they will also insist on both of these components inherited own sonic signatures. That due if ever due to their specific design, build and dampening properties accordingly if any. But hopefully a turntable doesn't produce sound nor does it produces music for that matter. So it's 'yes' and 'no'...

A good cartridge on a bad matching tonearm or of poor performance won't sound great as it should and a poor cartridge on a right matching tonearm performing as it should will allow the cartridge qualities to express it's aptitudes... So the combination is very important to reveal each components best sides.
 
spark1 said:
Interesting, as the 518 and 560 are quite similar, other than full auto and quartz lock on the 560. I would think there is something "wrong" with one of them if they sound obviously different (assuming same amplification, speakers and placement).
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Yeah, you would think!!! I’ve visually checked the tone arm wiring in the base... I didn’t see anything, it’s all stock. The tonearms feel the same to me, nothing loose or overly tight.
Funny thing is, the 560 has operational issues like the plastic on plastic clunk when activating the auto-return and it occasionally mis-cues and sets the needle down at 10” instead of 12” when using full auto... but it’s sq is much better. It’s like the difference between 47k and 1k of loading on a cart... maybe not quite that drastic, but it’s that type difference between the two.
The platters are different on the two decks, I wonder if they are interchangeable?
This thread has inspired me! I’m gonna pull the 560 out and go to work on her, see if I can’t get those plastic gears and trip levers quieted down. Maybe change the lamp in the meter (it’s depressing)... maybe a soft amber, green or blue colored light would look nice!
 
The Shocker said:
I own two "vintage" turntables, a Technics SL-D2 and a Dual CS1257. My understanding is that neither of these turntables were "high end" back when they first came out.

Looking at the specs for these turntables, their wow and flutter values, SNR and rumble are significantly better than "higher end" readily available turntables such as the U-turn Orbit Plus, the Fluance RT-85, or even the "high-end" stuff from Pro-ject.

So, what's different about these new turntables that makes them look inferior on paper to vintage turntables. Is it an AC Motor vs DC Motor thing? I feel like having a DC motor with a wall-wart would be a good thing.

Please help a clueless guy understand. There has to be more to this than just "they don't build them like they used to."
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It's called build quality, it's called precision, it's called engineering prowess, it's called design. It's called reliability and durability. Customers when your turntables were new, were more educated on average, and more demanding. And the need to sell all those "Upgrades". And when your turntables were new, your budget bought much more.
 
KentTeffeteller said:
It's called build quality, it's called precision, it's called engineering prowess, it's called design. It's called reliability and durability. Customers when your turntables were new, were more educated on average, and more demanding. And the need to sell all those "Upgrades". And when your turntables were new, your budget bought much more.
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Mostly this I believe. My Rega has an aftermarket 3 piece subplatter, and a speed box. It's still not as consistent (or quiet) as my Empire 598. It's funny, I think adjusted for inflation they're about the same price.
 
My Planar 3 is from 1988. Is it vintage yet?

Holds speed quite nicely with the dual belt pulley, white belts and upgraded motor. and is very, very quiet. Not my main TT anymore, but I still love the old thing.
 
dysmike said:
Mostly this I believe. My Rega has an aftermarket 3 piece subplatter, and a speed box. It's still not as consistent (or quiet) as my Empire 598. It's funny, I think adjusted for inflation they're about the same price.
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I'll take the Empire over any Rega. It is consistent, it's quiet, it's beautiful, it also matches my equipment. It's built to last, to perform musically and reliably for years on end. It was good enough for WQXR-FM, the finest classical radio station in the USA, who used them for many years.
 
KentTeffeteller said:
I'll take the Empire over any Rega. It is consistent, it's quiet, it's beautiful, it also matches my equipment. It's built to last, to perform musically and reliably for years on end. It was good enough for WQXR-FM, the finest classical radio station in the USA, who used them for many years.
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Thanks so much for your response. No need to defend the old Empire...I certainly was not denigrating it. Just noting that my Rega has never shown the slightest problem with speed. Carry on...I'm sure there are many threads here and the other forums you haunt that urgently need your input.
 
So, what specific part of the turntable is responsible for wow and flutter values? Is it the motor? Is it the belt? The pulley system? I'm just curious what led to better numbers "back in day" specifically.
 
spark1 said:
My Planar 3 is from 1988. Is it vintage yet?

Holds speed quite nicely with the dual belt pulley, white belts and upgraded motor. and is very, very quiet. Not my main TT anymore, but I still love the old thing.
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For the purposes of this conversation, more than likely. I do not believe that the plastic subplatter mine came with was as concentric as it should be. The subplatter also upgraded the bearing, which also probably yielded improvements. Separating the motor from the plinth would likely be the next logical path to making it as quiet as the empire is.
 
spark1 said:
Thanks so much for your response. No need to defend the old Empire...I certainly was not denigrating it. Just noting that my Rega has never shown the slightest problem with speed. Carry on...I'm sure there are many threads here and the other forums you haunt that urgently need your input.
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My Rega Planar 2 keeps speed. But it took a lot of work to do so, and several upgrades to get there. It's been fine since that's been done. I would have not sank that kind of expense in it, if it hadn't been given to me by the late original USA Rega importer, Steve Lauerman, of Lauerman Imports. Steve was a friend of mine, now deceased. And a firm believer in vinyl during the dark days. I am glad to own it.
 
dysmike said:
For the purposes of this conversation, more than likely. I do not believe that the plastic subplatter mine came with was as concentric as it should be. The subplatter also upgraded the bearing, which also probably yielded improvements. Separating the motor from the plinth would likely be the next logical path to making it as quiet as the empire is.
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I've considered that upgrade, but will probably not pursue it. It performs very well as it is, and doesn't get a lot of use anymore.
 
KentTeffeteller said:
My Rega Planar 2 keeps speed. But it took a lot of work to do so, and several upgrades to get there. It's been fine since that's been done. I would have not sank that kind of expense in it, if it hadn't been given to me by the late original USA Rega importer, Steve Lauerman, of Lauerman Imports. Steve was a friend of mine, now deceased. And a firm believer in vinyl during the dark days. I am glad to own it.
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For the price of a Rega, I would expect it to keep speed. Can I ask what upgrades you did to get it to keep speed?
 
The Shocker said:
For the price of a Rega, I would expect it to keep speed. Can I ask what upgrades you did to get it to keep speed?
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It had to get a motor upgrade, and a Groovetracer subplatter. I also added a Rega speed controller, for easier 45 RPM without a belt change. Before this was done, held solo piano and guitar and bass chords were audibly wavery. I also installed the Rega white belt. The new Planar 3 is better overall stock, out of the box. Remember, I am very pitch sensitive.
 
spark1 said:
Planar 2s can be had very cheaply.
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I can't find one selling new for less than $600 in the quick Google search I just did. Most were closer to $700. I feel like that's a pice point that should be able to keep speed without needing to tweak it.
 
KentTeffeteller said:
It had to get a motor upgrade, and a Groovetracer subplatter. I also added a Rega speed controller, for easier 45 RPM without a belt change. Before this was done, held solo piano and guitar and bass chords were audibly wavery. I also installed the Rega white belt. The new Planar 3 is better overall stock, out of the box. Remember, I am very pitch sensitive.
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Can I ask how much all that cost?
 
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