Gaeilge
New Member
If you are heavy into amplifiers, you will find they are CORRECT. You never want to use the max, peak output because this usually depends upon an unbelievably high output voltage from your source device which is not realistic. This would be when you have something like a square wave on a test disc outputting at max amplitude and your gain maxed out on the AVR. Using max output ratings is ridiculous, if this was the case pre-amps with a max output voltage at 5V or above would blow up the input stage of an amplifier every time you turn the volume up. If Onkyo could claim a higher continuous pre-out voltage, for that model, you'd think they would. It is not uncommon to get max output specs by using an AP and sending 1V RMS at 1KHz into the line level inputs - your CD player or analog source devices will never get close to this and usually output around 300mV for transients and even lower continuous. Simpy put, using max/peak output is bad practice and I would be worried if you were told this was okay.
Honestly, 200mV is a crap spec. How you can expect any company to recommend that with their product? If it really is that poor, what is to stop you from blaming the amplifier "from not doing more for you" when you are not properly driving it?
To see if Onkyo's spec is really that poor, or if they simply mis-spec'd it, you can even use a multi-meter set to AC voltage. Take your red probe and put it on the pin of the RCA cable connected to the Onkyo's pre-out and the black probe on the shield of the RCA cable. Crank the volume up, and have a cd player hooked up to a pair of analog inputs. While this obviously doesn't give you the detail a generator and a scope will, or the detail an AP will give you, it will give you a good idea of what is going. Expect to see the voltage jump around - how much will depend upon how dynamic the music is that you are feeding the Onkyo.
Realistically, if you did not have to match pre-out voltage with the input sensitivity of the amplifier, pre-amplfiers would not have a market. You could purchase AVRs, with more features for less money, with pre-outs and pre-amps would cease to exist. Consumer gear would integrate with pro audio gear and life would be swell. AVRs simply don't focus on the pre-output stages as much as a dedicated pre. Every amp operates with a different input sensitivity depending upon design. The higher the power output of the amplifier, the higher input voltage it requires - it is a ratio of input voltage to output voltage into a given load (wattage). This is because you don't find very many amps that do more than 34dB of gain and most are around 28dB. This is a real world design limitation and the Onkyo, if spec'd accurately with its limited pre-out voltage, just can't cut it. Sure, it will work but you are not fully driving any power amp available that has anywhere near 100W or more.
I also checked Outlaw's website and they do not sell Marantz receivers. Do you mean the Marantz preamplifier they sell?
I've dealt with Outlaw on multiple occasions and its refreshing to be able to talk to a company that I don't have to explain things to or feeling like I am chatting with Comcast when I call for tech support. The fact that people take legit knowledge, that they don't understand, and refute it online as a sales pitch is kinda lame - especially when they don't sell the AVRs you are claiming they pitched to you. It drives me crazy to see a lack of knowledge cause a thread like this. I can't stand dealing with audio companies that don't have a clue or read from a book. This is the type of thread/response that erodes customer service and causes companies to turn around and just give you the Best Buy response of: "Sure! This will work great for you! Buy our product!" to sell their product quickly and get you off the phone - because why bother spending their time this is the result. It sounds like they took the time to do you a solid and explained technically why you want to look into this further.
Yes, admittedly it makes me salty as hell, but it is because I can't get this type of support from companies like Marantz, Yamaha, or just about anyone anymore. When I see this type of thread, you know its only a matter of time till companies like Outlaw, Oppo, Audio Alchemy, etc. see the results of their efforts and just don't bother enlightening customers anymore but rather only focus on taking your order and selling their product. Please guys, don't ruin the last few companies that go out of their way. The Comcasts and Best Buys of the world already make me pull my hair out.
Let us know if you have any questions about testing the pre-out voltage with a DMM, and I'd be glad to help you out. The meter won't give you an idea of harmonic distortion like feeding a scope with a 1KHz signal, and it won't give you THD or SNR like an AP would, but it will give you a rough idea.
Honestly, 200mV is a crap spec. How you can expect any company to recommend that with their product? If it really is that poor, what is to stop you from blaming the amplifier "from not doing more for you" when you are not properly driving it?
To see if Onkyo's spec is really that poor, or if they simply mis-spec'd it, you can even use a multi-meter set to AC voltage. Take your red probe and put it on the pin of the RCA cable connected to the Onkyo's pre-out and the black probe on the shield of the RCA cable. Crank the volume up, and have a cd player hooked up to a pair of analog inputs. While this obviously doesn't give you the detail a generator and a scope will, or the detail an AP will give you, it will give you a good idea of what is going. Expect to see the voltage jump around - how much will depend upon how dynamic the music is that you are feeding the Onkyo.
Realistically, if you did not have to match pre-out voltage with the input sensitivity of the amplifier, pre-amplfiers would not have a market. You could purchase AVRs, with more features for less money, with pre-outs and pre-amps would cease to exist. Consumer gear would integrate with pro audio gear and life would be swell. AVRs simply don't focus on the pre-output stages as much as a dedicated pre. Every amp operates with a different input sensitivity depending upon design. The higher the power output of the amplifier, the higher input voltage it requires - it is a ratio of input voltage to output voltage into a given load (wattage). This is because you don't find very many amps that do more than 34dB of gain and most are around 28dB. This is a real world design limitation and the Onkyo, if spec'd accurately with its limited pre-out voltage, just can't cut it. Sure, it will work but you are not fully driving any power amp available that has anywhere near 100W or more.
I also checked Outlaw's website and they do not sell Marantz receivers. Do you mean the Marantz preamplifier they sell?
I've dealt with Outlaw on multiple occasions and its refreshing to be able to talk to a company that I don't have to explain things to or feeling like I am chatting with Comcast when I call for tech support. The fact that people take legit knowledge, that they don't understand, and refute it online as a sales pitch is kinda lame - especially when they don't sell the AVRs you are claiming they pitched to you. It drives me crazy to see a lack of knowledge cause a thread like this. I can't stand dealing with audio companies that don't have a clue or read from a book. This is the type of thread/response that erodes customer service and causes companies to turn around and just give you the Best Buy response of: "Sure! This will work great for you! Buy our product!" to sell their product quickly and get you off the phone - because why bother spending their time this is the result. It sounds like they took the time to do you a solid and explained technically why you want to look into this further.
Yes, admittedly it makes me salty as hell, but it is because I can't get this type of support from companies like Marantz, Yamaha, or just about anyone anymore. When I see this type of thread, you know its only a matter of time till companies like Outlaw, Oppo, Audio Alchemy, etc. see the results of their efforts and just don't bother enlightening customers anymore but rather only focus on taking your order and selling their product. Please guys, don't ruin the last few companies that go out of their way. The Comcasts and Best Buys of the world already make me pull my hair out.
Let us know if you have any questions about testing the pre-out voltage with a DMM, and I'd be glad to help you out. The meter won't give you an idea of harmonic distortion like feeding a scope with a 1KHz signal, and it won't give you THD or SNR like an AP would, but it will give you a rough idea.