After 25+ years, feeling discouraged and thinking of giving up the chase.

[matteos]

I remember reading your post Brett that you became dissatisfied with your B&W's after listening with a pair of Sennheissers.

But now you say that those were the favourite speakers you've had. I've heard those B&Ws and they're nice, but they have cheaper cabinet construction that colors the sound somewhat. Seems to me you should just move further up the B&W chain, find a nice pair of used 802's, 804's etc that use the Matrix design.

 

[Brett a]

Getting back to the OP's original issue.

After viewing photos of his system and listening area, (...) I'm thinking some room treatments will help his system give him more of what he paid for.
(...)
I picked up some acoustical panels this summer to play around with, to see if I could improve the sound of my system.

One night I decided to place the panels in front of the t.v. and in front of the glass doors on the console. Talk about an improvement!:thmbsp: The imaging, clarity, lack of smearing, and detail all went up several notches. I think a lot of folks refuse to consider the room as much a component as the actual gear.

I don't know if even treating your room is an option...(WAF). I would seriously explore this route before chucking it all in. This may be all that's keeping your system from satisfying you.

I have a few DIY 24"x 48" Owens Corning 703 -based panels that I made. (I usually keep a couple behind the system along with theATS bass traps.). But I've spent some time trying them in different locations around the room, mostly at tweeter level.

This experimenting has given me the strong impression that the problem is coming directly from the speakers. When I absorb a great deal of reflective sound, what I find is that the offending quality is actually worsened b/c it has no reflections to dilute it. This can be worsened by the fact I found myself turning the volume up a little to compensate for the diminished reflective energy meeting my ears.

Even w/o this experimenting, it's pretty easy to differentiate between the sound coming off the walls and the sound coming directly from the speakers don't you think?

I don't remember if you had any tubes in your system, but if not, give a tube pre amp a try also. Tubes are a good way to take away some glare in a system. Hope you figure it out!

There's a tube buffer built into the integrated amp that the unbalanced inputs run through (I think they are 6922s). The phono stage has a pair of 12ax7s in it. I have a modest stash of tubes I've swapped in and out.

.

 

[Brett a]

I remember reading your post Brett that you became dissatisfied with your B&W's after listening with a pair of Sennheissers.

But now you say that those were the favourite speakers you've had. I've heard those B&Ws and they're nice, but they have cheaper cabinet construction that colors the sound somewhat. Seems to me you should just move further up the B&W chain, find a nice pair of used 802's, 804's etc that use the Matrix design.

The cabs on those B&W were exactly the problem I had with them. Maybe I should go further up the B&W food chain. I swear, I still those 683s.

 

[Frank Sol]

Seems to me you should just move further up the B&W chain, find a nice pair of used 802's, 804's etc that use the Matrix design.

I heard a pair of BW 804D with some Musical Fidelity up front

Truly an impressive speaker but is getting out of my league financially. However, if I were in that market range I would seriously consider a pair 804D

 

[ofajen]

Do you notice the speakers sounding worse as you play them louder beyond a certain point? I'm sure you know that a speaker can sound great at lower and medium levels, but at a certain point it may start to get harsh, long before reaching levels that would damage the speaker. My NHT SuperZeroes sound very natural at reasonable levels, but get harsh at louder levels. I stay well below that point.

Otto

 

[Frank Sol]

Do you notice the speakers sounding worse as you play them louder beyond a certain point? I'm sure you know that a speaker can sound great at lower and medium levels, but at a certain point it may start to get harsh, long before reaching levels that would damage the speaker. My NHT SuperZeroes sound very natural at reasonable levels, but get harsh at louder levels. I stay well below that point.

Otto

So do my AR18s

 

[matteos]

I heard a pair of BW 804D with some Musical Fidelity up front

Truly an impressive speaker but is getting out of my league financially. However, if I were in that market range I would seriously consider a pair 804D

Someone has been running a B&W 804 ad on craigslist near me for the last 2 weeks.

(SOLD) B&W 804 Series - $750

How annoying is that! Take the ad down, of course you sold them.

But yeah, B&Ws are out of my financial league too. I'd be more buy the 6 series, pull the drivers add bracing and damping to the cab.

 

[onwardjames]

So do my AR18s

and so do my Yamaha NS-690 III's but that may be due to having lesser gear in the signal path.

 

[Pio1980]

Do you notice the speakers sounding worse as you play them louder beyond a certain point? I'm sure you know that a speaker can sound great at lower and medium levels, but at a certain point it may start to get harsh, long before reaching levels that would damage the speaker. My NHT SuperZeroes sound very natural at reasonable levels, but get harsh at louder levels. I stay well below that point.

Otto

Not so unusual as they are rated as suggested for good reason, and it's possible that the level is just overwhelming the room with bounce-echo triggering the irritating effect. This happens more often than most folks think, what level do you normally listen at and does it go to hell as you crank it up?
As for me I couldn't bear having stuff I want to enjoy coming out of some undersized anemic sounding thingus that can't present most of the parts of the performance, I'd find something that works on the scale I'm used to in a way that does not trigger the irritation and have that let me into the music.

 

[Brett a]

"Lately, I've realized that the new speakers I bought about a year ago are pretty glaring and fatiguing (so why keep them?). "

This is a common mistake tyros usually succumb to. In a dealer's showroom louder = better and brighter = better. Also dealer showrooms are often relatively dead sounding to begin with compared to most home listening rooms. Manufacturers have used this knowledge to their advantage by making speakers brighter sounding and more efficient. When you get them home, hook them up, and begin to hate them, the dealer tells you they need to be broken in. Once you become accustomed to the shrillness, you think they're wonderful. The other obsession with today's audiophiles is imaging. To achieve pinpoint localization of the source, usually tweeters beam their sound along a very narrow axis. This avoids room reflections at high frequencies. To hear this imaging you need to sit where X marks the sweet spot.

Wow, now that's a dark and jaded view! You're going to the wrong dealer my friend. (BTW, what's a "tyro?)

I buy most of my gear from a local dealer that sends gear home with me with no obligation to buy it to help me decide.

I'm sorry you've had different experiences (I assume you're speaking from experience, right?)

I had a pair of my current speakers on loan for a week before I decided to buy them. (I had others for similar time as well so I could compare). I went though this same process when choosing my integrated, my CD player, couple of phono stages and some cables. They not only send me home with stuff I might buy, they sometimes send me home with stuff that they think would be interesting for me to hear.

IMO vintage speakers are better. Personally I'd suggest a pair of KLH model 5s. They don't image well and they aren't shrill. You can enjoy them all day. There are many others as well. Because of their cloth woofer surrounds they stood up well with time. However they may need new capacitors in their crossover networks if they haven't been replaced in the past.

Would KLH 5's sound significantly better than the (restored) Model 23's I already have? Imaging and sound stage are a must. For me they are a starting point, not a destination. Speakers have to start by disappearing into the room. And I don't think there's anything I could do to get my Model 23's to sound that clear.

All this to say, I think you and I have very different goals and attitudes about this hobby. But thanks for the effort (I think)

 

[mfrench]

Have you ever tried recording real live music?
Nothing gets me salivating more to hear my rig than a fresh one in the can. I cannot wait to get the recording playing back.
If you're analyzing your system based on someone else's billion channel, stomped on to a point of unrecognizable, over processed commercial effort, I can see where fatigue sets in. To me, there is nothing better than a minimalist two channel stereo recording, and the ability to play it back immediately, or close to immediate, so that I can compare real music, with no processing or compression, etc.
I'm not saying its for everyone, but, it always gets me directly into critical listening mode.

 

[Brett a]

Not so unusual as they are rated as suggested for good reason, and it's possible that the level is just overwhelming the room with bounce-echo triggering the irritating effect. This happens more often than most folks think, what level do you normally listen at and does it go to hell as you crank it up?
As for me I couldn't bear having stuff I want to enjoy coming out of some undersized anemic sounding thingus that can't present most of the parts of the performance, I'd find something that works on the scale I'm used to in a way that does not trigger the irritation and have that let me into the music.

I agree. Proper scale is essential. I wouldn't be able to live with little speakers that "letterbox" a musical performance. I can just hear it now: Man! That symphony sounds brilliant! Brilliantly played by a group of 4" people with tiny instrument.

As for the concerns about reflections, I addressed that back in post 268. My problem is coming directly out of the speakers.

 

[Brett a]

Have you ever tried recording real live music?
Nothing gets me salivating more to hear my rig than a fresh one in the can. I cannot wait to get the recording playing back.
If you're analyzing your system based on someone else's billion channel, stomped on to a point of unrecognizable, over processed commercial effort, I can see where fatigue sets in. To me, there is nothing better than a minimalist two channel stereo recording, and the ability to play it back immediately, or close to immediate, so that I can compare real music, with no processing or compression, etc.
I'm not saying its for everyone, but, it always gets me directly into critical listening mode.

I do not record music, but I do listen to a pretty good variety of different types of recordings. Have you ever checked out my playlist thread?
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=449643&page=4

 

[mfrench]

But stereo's are meant to only present the music that is put into them Live is totally different and LIVE IS NOT WHAT I WANT FROM A STEREO.

Brett - I think the B&W 805's are what the doctor ordered. They are the best stand mounts that B&W make and they so sound awesome!

I can't speak for you (despite the slight correction to your post), or your motivations. Live is exactly what I want from a stereo.

Brett,
If you are not totally burned out, I'd suggest a few recordings from Water Lily Acoustics. Five, great, true stereo, two channel recordings, from this label are:
A Meeting by the River - Ry Cooder and V.M. Bhatt
Mumtaz Mahal - Taj Mahal, V.M. Bhatt, N. Ravikiran
Kambara Music in Native Tongues - David Hidalgo, Martin Simpson, Viji Krishnan, Puvlaur Srinivasan
Bourbon and Rosewater V.M. Bhatt, Jerry Douglas, Edgar Meyer
From the Ashes - Larry Coryell, L. Suoramaniam (sp?)


These are five recordings that are as pure as silk; extraordinary.

 

[ofajen]

Not so unusual as they are rated as suggested for good reason, and it's possible that the level is just overwhelming the room with bounce-echo triggering the irritating effect. This happens more often than most folks think, what level do you normally listen at and does it go to hell as you crank it up?
As for me I couldn't bear having stuff I want to enjoy coming out of some undersized anemic sounding thingus that can't present most of the parts of the performance, I'd find something that works on the scale I'm used to in a way that does not trigger the irritation and have that let me into the music.

First, no, it has nothing to do with room reflections. I'm listening relatively close (about 4 feet) in a significantly larger room with excellent architecture. Reflected sound is not relevant to this. Further, I heard the same thing with these speakers in my studio, where early reflections don't exist, only carefully controlled late reflections.

Second, why do you assume I'm listening only to the small satellites? Yes, I'm talking specifically about their performance, but I always match them with one or more subs, exactly as Ken Kantor, their creator, intended. They are just the right size for what they are and not at all anemic as part of a complete system. Indeed, for listening at close range they have few rivals, and whether they have betters is a matter of opinion.

Otto

 

[Wavetouch]

One of reasons for "The listener fatigue" is from a physical energy of sound. The sound has a physical (P) energy and sonic (S) energy. The p energy is what pushing the sound away from the speaker. We hear the S energy pushed by the P energy. What we want to listen is the S energy. Not P energy! For example, the beginner golfers hit a lot of slice balls. This slice ball flies straight at the beginning of the flight of the ball. The golf ball starts go to side way after hitting and pushing energy from the golf club (P energy) dissipated and weakened. P energy is forceful energy from an object and they hurt human ears like a sonic boom. S energy is a natural movement of the sound and much easy to human ears.

The bright sounding speakers are OK as long as they don’t hurt my ears. I love shimmering, sweet, dazzling, splendid, delicate high frequency as long as no P energy presents to hurt my ears. Without this quality, you will not get open sound.

Some tweeters equip a plastic or metal cover on tweeter to control P energy. The side effect is loosing a big portion of S energy and whirling turbulence of sound waves. We can’t get musical satisfaction from thin and diffused sounds. These speakers with a cover sound usually not musical. If they are musical, that’s from the woofer. Not from the tweeter. How musical can they be without the high freq? Mediocre at their best. The P energy on the woofer and tweeter can be easily controlled without loosing S energy.

The physical energy is very easy to control. P energy is dissipated after hit an object while S energy bounces. We need a sound wave guide that kills/reduces P energy and bounces S energy to a listener without loosing the quality of sound.

Wavetouch technology kills P energy.

Wavetouch Audio

 

[mhardy6647]

in case no one answered this, a "tyro" is a beginner; a newbie...

 

[ultumax]

Thousands of dollars in and out and countless hours of consternation and I once again find myself pretty dissatisfied with my system.

Lately, I've realized that the new speakers I bought about a year ago are pretty glaring and fatiguing (so why keep them?). And for the amount of time I spend listing to music (not much), it's hard to justify it taking up half the living room.

I've been fantasizing about purging it all and getting something I can simply enjoy w/o wracking my brain over; something that can be part of the living room, not the whole center of it.

And this has made me realize I've never had a casual relationship with audio gear. I've fussed over equipment as far back as I can remember; certainly into the early 80's. I wonder if I'd be able to unhook from it.

I'm starting to wonder if I'd be just happy with a Bose Wave Radio in the corner of the living room. (Well, maybe not that exactly, but you know...)

It might feel good to wipe the slate clean.
But maybe it wouldn't...

:sigh:

Most Bose stuff is overpriced, =/ id buy something else.
I would keep your current speakers and worry about upgrading your home Video, unless that is also maxed out:thmbsp:
Take a break from buying speakers for a while if your burnt out

 

[HypnoToad]

in case no one answered this, a "tyro" is a beginner; a newbie...

Or as I would say a neophyte.

 

[gvalent]

Brett, any chance of doing a couple of in home demos with a few different types of speakers? Any friendly dealers about who would allow for that? You got the bones there of a truly great system. I wouldn't abandon it, being so close.

This may be the problem..........Being so close to what?