AK Design Collaborative - Insignia-Class Economy Speakers (a.k.a Indignia)

[RayW]

If it turns out better to have the drivers recessed into a rabbet, would adding a second baffle layer of thin material have the same effect, soundwise, as routing a recess for the drivers? That is, surface mount the drivers, then make a second baffle of 1/8" or 1/4" hardboard (whatever thickness is needed) cut to fit the OD of the drivers, that would be glued to the front of the first baffle. This could be an alternative method for those who don't have access to a router to cut recesses for the drivers.

Sure, Jimbo, it'll work with a little playing around. There are 2 problems to overcome, one by planning ahead and one by tinkering a little.

First you have to match the pattern to the baffle pretty precisely. Z helped with this by providing a baffle pattern. You can use it to lay out both the baffle and the facing piece. Z, is that to scale? I didn't check.

Second, the flanges are slightly different depths like Robie said. The easy fix for this is to get something that's a bit too thick and build up underneath using Mortite (rope caulk) or something similar to get flush with the face.

I guess what you use would determine whether it's hard to work with or not. Masonite or thin plywood would probably be fairly easy to deal with. Something crumbly like strudel would probably be rough.

Ray

 

[dnewma04]

Jimbo, i have a circle cutting jig. If you wanted to send me your baffles, I could make the recessed driver cutouts for you and send them back up to you. You pay shipping, and I'll make the cuts.

 

[RayW]

Crap Dave, where were you last week when I was doing mine???

A generous offer. And welcome back to the thread. Are you building some or did you just get the XO design started and lose your sense of adventure?

Ray

 

[dnewma04]

Sorry Ray! Project list is huge, time is short, can't get to this until many other things are finished, but if someone needed me to cut out a pair of holes on a couple of baffles, I can probably find a few minutes on a weekend to get that done. At least, i hope so.

 

[Zilch]

Z, is that to scale? I didn't check.

Should be, yes, AutoCAD dimensions to the lines and objects. If anything's wrong, I'll fix it and deny it ever happened. :

You might want to confirm the counterbore diameters and depths. I measured the parts with dial calipers and compared to the spec sheets. They were different, and metric, of course....

After thumping around on it a bit I have decided that I'll put a side-to-side brace inside. I'll just have to keep it out of the way of the port.

Yeah, but how do they SOUND, Ray?

or :guitar:?

​

 

[jimbofish]

Jimbo, i have a circle cutting jig. If you wanted to send me your baffles, I could make the recessed driver cutouts for you and send them back up to you. You pay shipping, and I'll make the cuts.

That's a very generous offer, and Thanks!, :thmbsp: but I have a router and can make my own. My suggestion, if it was feasible, was offered as a possible alternative for AKers with minimal tools, although it could present a perfect opportunity to justify buying a new tool. :yes:

 

[RayW]

Yeah, but how do they SOUND, Ray?

or :guitar:?

​

Kinda quiet so far. The UPS guy was a little late this evening. I didn't get started with XO's until late. I got them wired PtP but don't have connection wires for the drivers on them yet. They'll be up and running tomorrow.

And I'll throw a caliper on my drivers too. My general, and extremely scientific, method is to lay the driver face down on the router base and adjust the depth by eyeball.

My suggestion, if it was feasible, was offered as a possible alternative for AKers with minimal tools, although it could present a perfect opportunity to justify buying a new tool. :yes:

Thinking of the other guy. You're a good man, Jimbo!

Ray

 

[Robie]

That's a very generous offer, and Thanks!, :thmbsp: but I have a router and can make my own. My suggestion, if it was feasible, was offered as a possible alternative for AKers with minimal tools, although it could present a perfect opportunity to justify buying a new tool. :yes:

Thanks for the idea jimbofish. I'll wait until I'm half way through the project and ruined several pieces of wood before getting that router though.

With my "skills" and experience with DIY projects, I was getting concerned I wasn't going to find a way to actually spend more money building the cabs myself than buying the premades.

Ray, can't wait to hear how they sound. You have some idea of what "tickles my ears."

Since we seem to have the objective measurements covered (thanks to Zilch and others) I'd also suggest that someone with access to Insignias provide a subjective comparison/impressions of how they compare.

 

[jimbofish]

Thanks, Ray.

Great idea Jimbofish, but I'm guessing the flanges are pretty thin so matching their depth will require a second piece that is pretty thin too (approximately .15" and .125" according to Zilch's diagram), and therefore pretty tough to work with.

.125" is 1/8", so 1/8" hardboard should work fine, assuming that the material selected actually measures 1/8" thick. Much of the stuff at the lumberyards nowadays is thinner than the nominal thickness though, so it may require some searching and measuring.

The difference between .125" and .15" is less than 1/32", maybe not significant enough to matter. If it does, a second shim of heavy paper or thin cardboard could be sandwiched in between the layers, then removed from behind the thicker driver. Alternately, the extra < 1/32" could be removed with sandpaper or pared away with a chisel or utility knife. One could also chisel out the recesses in the original baffle with some patience and sharp tools.

 

[Zilch]

Since we seem to have the objective measurements covered (thanks to Zilch and others) I'd also suggest that someone with access to Insignias provide a subjective comparison/impressions of how they compare.

It'll be YOUR job to deliver the eulogy here....

 

[Robie]

Thanks for the pressure, Zilch. :thmbsp:

Your "assignment" has given me the push over the top necessary to get started. :yes: (Borrowing from sports training, I like to "visualize" things before the "race.")

Can't wait to get started but understand it is the journey, right? Technically, I am started though. I hope two pair of PE 5-way binding posts qualify as a start.

My cautious, frugal and semi-compulsive nature is telling me to wait 'til I hear from Ray before ordering both the speakers and crossover. I'm hoping to order both at the same time to minimize shipping costs and avoid starting a project I can't finish (hear) once I get started. Also, buying that router (and bits) is going to be expensive when I decide I can't finish the project without them.

Got my eye on a cool Craftsman corner clamp that will probably come in handy too.

Thanks again for carrying the ball guys.

 

[RayW]

Had the Indignias up and running a little bit yesterday. It turned out to be a VERY busy afternoon/evening so I didn't get much time to play. I still need to do a little messing around. Initial impression is "not bad". I'm getting some midrange ring which is probably because I have no damping at all in them right now. I'll get something together later today and see what I can do. Good bass, good treble, and they'll play pretty loud for little guys. I just need to dork around with damping and possibly a little bracing to get the midrange fixed. Heck, the XO's aren't even anchored, they're just sitting in the bottom of the box. Stay tuned.

Ray

 

[dnewma04]

Ray, as a tweak, I have seen someone slice the cone a la Revelator and then add some spray on damping material and get very good results from the dayton. But then you'd probably have to rework some crossover values with those changes. Might be a fun second step to the project.

 

[Zilch]

Good bass, good treble, and they'll play pretty loud for little guys.

:thmbsp:

I don't know how loud they'll actually go, but according to Zaph's measurements of the woofers and BB6P models, that would probably be "surprisingly" if not "stupid" loud.

I've played them all day 90 dB @ 2M on the trusty R/S SPL meter "C" scale without a hint of strain. That's about MY limit on loudness for any duration in the same room, so I'm not listening from there....

 

[YamahaFreak]

I just got back from the International Wolf Center and look at all this progress! It's wonderful! :yes:

 

[Robie]

Indignia cabinets with serial numbers 5 and 6 just rolled off the production line. Have to order the speakers and xover soon.

Tips for cabinet building for those without a table saw and router forthcoming.

 

[RayW]

Sounds good!

Ok, I've got my Indignias up and running in the living room right now. I had them in the garage on a T-amp when I first got them together and they sounded ringy in the midrange. I added some stuff and it helped a bunch. I used the sheet type quilt batting stuff you can get an Walmart or craft stores. I picked that because I had some here (makes great stuffing for tube TL's). Put it on 3 sides (back, bottom, and side opposite vent for simplicity) and it eats up the extra midrange waves bouncing around the box.

I haven't played with any measurements yet but I can't hear anything glaringly wrong. I put on some Billy McLaughlin (acoustic guitar wiz), Nora Jones, and some Blue Man Group to see what they'd do. The tweeter really treats guitars nicely. Nora should be right about the crossover and I don't hear her breaking up. The BMG pushed them to the limit (Mandelgroove) and they handled it gracefully. Having said that, a rumble filter wouldn't hurt. Stuff that gets below their port tuning will unload the drivers and they get pretty active. Of course, a little common sense is invaluable in realizing that this is a 6.5" driver in a small cabinet so you can't get it all. But you can get a surprising amount.

I'm liking the sound. What I've currently got is the XO ver. 3.5 that Z posted but I used 8ohm on the tweeter because I had it on hand and to counteract the next sentence...I also used a 20ga air core inductor on the big one (1.5mH) which will have more resistance than the iron core Z used. I'm hoping that these 2 changes will effectively cancel each other out (higher R on tweeter brings it down a little, higher R on woofer coil brings it down a little) but not drag the whole sensitivity into the basement. It sounds to me like it worked. I'll see what the mic has to say.

Equipment right now (for reference) is a JVC CD player and a NAD 7045 (45wpc) receiver. Currently I'm running about 12:00 on the volume with Enya's Carribean Blue and it's louder than I usually sit and listen.

A note on construction: the tweeter is sticky. If you get sawdust near it you will have a tan tweeter. Don't ask me how I know.

Ray

 

[dnewma04]

Ray, how do they compare to your dayton RS180/morel tweeter creation?

 

[Zilch]

Ok, I've got my Indignias up and running in the living room right now.

I'm liking the sound.

:thmbsp:

Equipment right now (for reference) is a JVC CD player and a NAD 7045 (45wpc) receiver. Currently I'm running about 12:00 on the volume with Enya's Carribean Blue and it's louder than I usually sit and listen.

They're not the most efficient speakers I have ever built, but that's why they've got such good bass, according to Brennan's law.

Does the T-amp drive them well enough for dorm, iPod, or computer use?

I haven't played with any measurements yet but I can't hear anything glaringly wrong.

Here's the V3.5 parts I'm going to go ahead and build with now. I'll hold off on posting the list until you verify with measurements or otherwise say "Go," but builders should be mindful that the current sale pricing of the drivers expires the end of this month.... :yes:

Edit: System impedances, below. "Friendly." :thmbsp:

 

[wiredbecker]

After hearing these Indignias I'm tempted to build two pairs and sell off all my home theater speakers. Great for music, even more fun in the entertainment center. BIG BOOM! Little speakers.