all good amps sound the same ?

[quadklipsh]

an hour ago , i was reading in another discussion that a well designed ss amp would be hard to differentiate from another one if both are similar quality products.

I dont agree.
Reason : sonic signature ????

why do i keep changing between my amps , every 2-3 months from quad 303s to luxmans 550 and sansuis 907s. They were almost same priced back in the day of their making yet they sound so much different that i have certain preferences on one over the other .....i like some things in one amp and others in the other .They were all claimed flat and distortion free and stabler amps under most conditions .
and secondly , why would someone pay twice as much as another amp if they were both to sound the same afterall.

 

[whoaru99]

Why should amps sound different, if the point of an amp is to simply take what comes in and make it larger going out?

If it largely alters the sound wouldn't that border on defective?

 

[robgmn]

Why should amps sound different, if the point of an amp is to simply take what comes in and make it larger going out?

If it largely alters the sound wouldn't that border on defective?

Like speaker cables, patch cables, speakers, cartridges, preamps, DACs, and on and on, they SHOULDN'T.

But they DO.

We're stuck with that fact.

 

[Jeffery]

Here's some light reading to get you started:

Do All

Amps Sound

The Same?

And here's A Few

More Just

In Case

You Want

Some More!

:thmbsp:

ETA: Two Words: Tube Rolling.

Why do tube amp guys claim they can hear the difference -in the same amp - between different tubes? Are all tube amps defective? All tubes? Are all tube amp guys deluded?

Or is it maybe, just maybe, possible that two identical, fully functional, non-defective amps can sound different using different tubes? If so, then doesn't this throw a bit of a monkey in the wrench?

 

[trhee]

Wouldn't that argument hold true for any other piece of gear if one were to believe this?

It was once believed that all CD players sound the same. Actually some people still believe this. After all, a CD player is just reading bits off of a disc and converting the binary to an analog signal.

Why should amps sound different, if the point of an amp is to simply take what comes in and make it larger going out?

If it largely alters the sound wouldn't that border on defective?

 

[Rowrbazzle]

Naive response, perhaps -- but the OP referenced a Luxman 550 and Sansui 907, which are integrated amps -- and a Quad 303, which is a power amp. I'm willing to concede that one power amp is much the same as another, given similar build quality, ratings, etc. But it seems to me that the difference between one integrated amp and other would derive from the pre-amp stages, which I'm assuming can be shaped and massaged to produce different "tone coloring" (for lack of a better term).

 

[Tedrick]

Here we go again :sigh:.

Naive response, perhaps -- but the OP referenced a Luxman 550 and Sansui 907, which are integrated amps -- and a Quad 303, which is a power amp. I'm willing to concede that one power amp is much the same as another, given similar build quality, ratings, etc. But it seems to me that the difference between one integrated amp and other would derive from the pre-amp stages, which I'm assuming can be shaped and massaged to produce different "tone coloring" (for lack of a better term).

Seriously?? How is "massaging" a pre-amp to get a particular sound any different than "massaging" a power amp to get a particular sound?? Just as pre-amps have differing circuit topologies, so do amplifiers, so I don't think it should be that difficult to accept that amps can sound different.

And then there's the whole amplifier-speaker interface thing to consider. There are plenty of well-designed amps that would sound like ass trying to drive a pair of Infinity Kappa 9's or some Apogee Scintilla's.

I swear, I just don't get this attitude. If all amps sounded the same, and all CD players sounded the same, this would be one f-ing boring-ass hobby.

 

[E-Stat]

Why should amps sound different, if the point of an amp is to simply take what comes in and make it larger going out?

Why? Are you kidding? There are countless different topologies and collections of active and passive parts along with differing power supply strategies.

While basic measurements are insufficient to fully characterize the audible results, the noise, distortion spectra and dynamic behavior are all over the board!

 

[TerryO]

I believe that all perfect amps sound exactly alike. The problem is just finding one in the first place!

 

[WaynerN]

Wouldn't that argument hold true for any other piece of gear if one were to believe this?

It was once believed that all CD players sound the same. Actually some people still believe this. After all, a CD player is just reading bits off of a disc and converting the binary to an analog signal.

That's really not true, as you have only described the "digital" part of the CD player. They also have D to A converters and while many of the chip sets might sound somewhat similar, their brick wall roll off for the 44.1 wall vary all over the place. It's easy to see why all CD players sound different, 'cause their analog sections are all different.

 

[ferninando]

1 word, NO

 

[trhee]

Believe me, I've never believed CD players to sound the same.

My point was that people who believe them to sound the same would argue what I wrote.

That's really not true, as you have only described the "digital" part of the CD player. They also have D to A converters and while many of the chip sets might sound somewhat similar, their brick wall roll off for the 44.1 wall vary all over the place. It's easy to see why all CD players sound different, 'cause their analog sections are all different.

 

[fredgarvin]

Anyone who can't hear differences might as well buy something from Target and be happy.

 

[ken kantor]

an hour ago , i was reading in another discussion that a well designed ss amp would be hard to differentiate from another one if both are similar quality products.

I dont agree.
Reason : sonic signature ????

why do i keep changing between my amps , every 2-3 months from quad 303s to luxmans 550 and sansuis 907s. They were almost same priced back in the day of their making yet they sound so much different that i have certain preferences on one over the other .....i like some things in one amp and others in the other .They were all claimed flat and distortion free and stabler amps under most conditions .
and secondly , why would someone pay twice as much as another amp if they were both to sound the same afterall.

I assure you that the statement is quite correct, and is backed up by a huge number of tests and experiments.

Your amps:

- May not be meeting their specs.

- May have different gains, which lead to subtle changes in listening level, etc.

- May not be meeting their specs into actual speaker loads.

- May have significant and differing output impedances, leading to load-dependent behavior.

- May be being pushed into overload, where all kinds of differences show up.

Also, never underestimate the power of the unconscious. There is NO way to consciously counteract it's effects, by definition. It doesn't matter what you expect, how hard you try, what you secretly wanted to happen.... the unconscious >will< wreak havoc upon any sighted experiment. Believe me, this has been studied for centuries.

-k

 

[Rowrbazzle]

Here we go again :sigh:.


Seriously?? How is "massaging" a pre-amp to get a particular sound any different than "massaging" a power amp to get a particular sound?? Just as pre-amps have differing circuit topologies, so do amplifiers, so I don't think it should be that difficult to accept that amps can sound different.

And then there's the whole amplifier-speaker interface thing to consider. There are plenty of well-designed amps that would sound like ass trying to drive a pair of Infinity Kappa 9's or some Apogee Scintilla's.

I swear, I just don't get this attitude. If all amps sounded the same, and all CD players sounded the same, this would be one f-ing boring-ass hobby.

I certainly wasn't attempting to project any "attitude," one way or another. And I'm no audio engineer. But I've seen comments, over and over again (on this forum as well as elsewhere) to the effect that "the pre-amp stage makes all the difference." And I would still predict that there are a whole lot more circuit designs (and design theories) for pre-amps than for power amps.

When someone complains about not getting a particular sound that they are looking for from a system, potential power amp replacement is generally tied to power capabilities and the ability of the power amp to properly drive a particular set of speakers, while people tend to recommend various pre-amps (and integrated amps) for the sonic shaping.

Again, I not trying to be quarrelsome -- just stating what I've heard and read from numerous sources. And I'm certainly not suggesting that all power amps are created equal.

 

[quadklipsh]

tedrick ,


I swear, I just don't get this attitude. If all amps sounded the same, and all CD players sounded the same, this would be one f-ing boring-ass hobby.

well said !!!!!

 

[62caddy]

... why would someone pay twice as much as another amp if they were both to sound the same afterall.

Many reasons.

Build quality, longevity, cosmetic appearance, stability under duress...to name a few.

*More powerful will obviously be more costly, all other things equal.

 

[kirk57]

I assure you that the statement is quite correct, and is backed up by a huge number of tests and experiments.

Your amps:

- May not be meeting their specs.

- May have different gains, which lead to subtle changes in listening level, etc.

- May not be meeting their specs into actual speaker loads.

- May have significant and differing output impedances, leading to load-dependent behavior.

Also, never underestimate the power of the unconscious. There is NO way to consciously counteract it's effects, by definition. It doesn't matter what you expect, how hard you try, what you secretly wanted to happen.... the unconscious >will< wreak havoc upon any sighted experiment. Believe me, this has been studied for centuries.

-k

So, to recap, all properly functioning amps of identical gain and output impedances, which meet their specs into an identical load, should (will?) sound the same?

I wonder if any two amps of different manufacturers meet those criteria?

 

[62caddy]

I assure you that the statement is quite correct, and is backed up by a huge number of tests and experiments.

Your amps:

- May not be meeting their specs.

- May have different gains, which lead to subtle changes in listening level, etc.

- May not be meeting their specs into actual speaker loads.

- May have significant and differing output impedances, leading to load-dependent behavior.

Also, never underestimate the power of the unconscious. There is NO way to consciously counteract it's effects, by definition. It doesn't matter what you expect, how hard you try, what you secretly wanted to happen.... the unconscious >will< wreak havoc upon any sighted experiment. Believe me, this has been studied for centuries.

-k

That's pretty much sums up much how I feel but didn't have the guts to say it!

 

[robgmn]

Why? Are you kidding? There are countless different topologies and collections of active and passive parts along with differing power supply strategies.

While basic measurements are insufficient to fully characterize the audible results, the noise, distortion spectra and dynamic behavior are all over the board!

I think the point may be that they SHOULDN'T sound different as their basic job is to amplify a signal, NOT to color that signal.

If one amp sounds "warm", another is "sterile", another is "lifeless", one or all may be defective in some way as it is not the job of any primary component to impart it's own sonic signature to what we hear.