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all good amps sound the same ?

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robgmn said:
I think the point may be that they SHOULDN'T sound different as their basic job is to amplify a signal, NOT to color that signal.
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Absolutely. Every device should be perfect. All speakers should have zero mass, unlimited bandwidth and radiate into a perfect sphere.

We're not there yet with any audio component.

robgmn said:
If one amp sounds "warm", another is "sterile", another is "lifeless", one or all may be defective in some way as it is not the job of any primary component to impart it's own sonic signature to what we hear.
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In my experience, all amps err in some fashion. Then it comes down to preference as to what you find provides the more realistic artifice. :)
 
This is very nice, interesting, intellectual masturbation. Even more in an audiophile forum...
Go ask in a Honda ATV forum (whatever) if Hondas are better than other ATV with the same specifications and I'm pretty sure that people who paid the price to have a specific name will guarantee you that theirs is better.

IAE, for what it's worth, I do not subscribe to the idea that all good amps sound the same, although I would say that the differences between comparable good quality gear tend to diminish with the technology becoming better every freakin' day.

What I wanted to say is said, we can now resume stroking ourselves the right way.
 
tycobee said:
Go ask in a Honda ATV forum (whatever) if Hondas are better than other ATV with the same specifications and I'm pretty sure that people who paid the price to have a specific name will guarantee you that theirs is better.
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Ironically, when it comes to amplifiers, I look for worse specifications - at least when it comes to useless metrics like THD when a design's topology is simple and well engineered. You know that most amps that achieve double or triple ought distortion levels rely heavily on the crutch of corrective feedback which looks great on paper, but creates higher order products and compromises dynamic behavior.

Audio Distortion and Feedback

As for Hondas, everyone knows they are ultra reliable. (I own three Honda products) :)
 
Who in the HELL gives a hoot!
To each his or her own as to what they like and that's the way it should be! "IT IS WHAT IT IS"... :)
 
Nope!

At least I don't think so.

But that's just me.

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Do all cars over $50,000 drive the same ??
No.

Different chassis, design, engineering, components.
 
E-Stat said:
Ironically, when it comes to amplifiers, I look for worse specifications - at least when it comes to useless metrics like THD when a design's topology is simple and well engineered. You know that most amps that achieve double or triple ought distortion levels rely heavily on the crutch of corrective feedback which looks great on paper, but creates higher order products and compromises dynamic behavior.

Audio Distortion and Feedback

As for Hondas, everyone knows they are ultra reliable. (I own three Honda products) :)
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Wha? Feedback does no such thing. That's an old wives tale. Negative feedback is the Gold Standard for amplifier accuracy, and that includes time domain accuracy.

-k
 
Tedrick said:
Here we go again :sigh:.


Seriously?? How is "massaging" a pre-amp to get a particular sound any different than "massaging" a power amp to get a particular sound?? Just as pre-amps have differing circuit topologies, so do amplifiers, so I don't think it should be that difficult to accept that amps can sound different.

And then there's the whole amplifier-speaker interface thing to consider. There are plenty of well-designed amps that would sound like ass trying to drive a pair of Infinity Kappa 9's or some Apogee Scintilla's.

I swear, I just don't get this attitude. If all amps sounded the same, and all CD players sounded the same, this would be one f-ing boring-ass hobby.
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You are right... speaker/load interactions are critical:

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/60.

So is clipping behavior.

But, boring? Really? Not for me. There are plenty of frontiers where things DO sound different that could be focused on without wasting time on things that are already solved. Plus, for many, I hope, the hobby is about music, and gear is secondary.

I started out as an amp designer. I was eventually recruited by NAD, and also designed for a number of other brands, both large and boutique. But, I grew tired of the sonic similarity between good designs. That's what led me to speaker design.

-k
 
kirk57 said:
So, to recap, all properly functioning amps of identical gain and output impedances, which meet their specs into an identical load, should (will?) sound the same?

I wonder if any two amps of different manufacturers meet those criteria?
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Many do. At least below clipping. On the other hand, there are also many amps that have defects, particularly in output impedance and load sensitivity, (as can be seen by looking at the amp measurements that Stereophile has done since they started to use the simulated speaker load that I gave them.

-k
 
E-Stat said:
Absolutely. Every device should be perfect. All speakers should have zero mass, unlimited bandwidth and radiate into a perfect sphere.

We're not there yet with any audio component.


In my experience, all amps err in some fashion. Then it comes down to preference as to what you find provides the more realistic artifice. :)
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Remember that loudspeakers, microphones and cartridges are a special type of component called a "transducer." They convert one form of energy into another. (A CD player, arguably, also fits this description). Transducers are pretty hard to measure and quantify. But an amp is different.... it takes an electrical signal in, and puts an electrical signal out. This makes it much easier to measure, refine and quantify, including in terms of audibility.

-k
 
ken kantor said:
Remember that loudspeakers, microphones and cartridges are a special type of component called a "transducer." They convert one form of energy into another. (A CD player, arguably, also fits this description). Transducers are pretty hard to measure and quantify. But an amp is different.... it takes an electrical signal in, and puts an electrical signal out. This makes it much easier to measure, refine and quantify, including in terms of audibility.

-k
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But is it possible for two different amps to even have absolutely identical specs? Also, isn't nfb primarily responsible for the general characteristic differences between ss and tube amps? Can you please explain the influence if any, of nfb on TIM?
 
Of course, we use these amps to play recorded music, and recorded music is produced, mixed, mastered etc by someone listening to the results through an amplifier chain and some speakers in a room. Unless we have an exact duplicate of that studio setup, we will not hear what the producer heard.

So, with that in mind, we ought to choose an amp that sounds good to us, playing the sort of recordings we like. For me, I'll just take a straight wire with gain, but of course, it will be a low oxygen, molecularly homogeneous wire made of that rare metal unobtanium. That's so that I can say my straight wire sounds different than other straight wires.
 
ken kantor said:
Remember that loudspeakers, microphones and cartridges are a special type of component called a "transducer." They convert one form of energy into another.
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Thank you professor for recapping Audio 101.

ken kantor said:
But an amp is different.... it takes an electrical signal in, and puts an electrical signal out. This makes it much easier to measure, refine and quantify, including in terms of audibility.
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Easier perhaps. Have you ever found a *perfect* amplifier? If so, what is it?
 
ken kantor said:
Wha? Feedback does no such thing. That's an old wives tale. Negative feedback is the Gold Standard for amplifier accuracy, and that includes time domain accuracy.
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We must live in different worlds. I happen to think Nelson Pass is quite a gifted designer and the concepts behind of his work are shared by many other companies who make high performance gear.

I'll take gear produced by Pass Labs, Audio Research, VTL, Ayre, etc. any day over clinical sounding high feedback designs from companies like Halcro, Bryston, McIntosh, etc. I've been listening to gear since the 70s and find a different reality than yours.

To each his own.

Edit: I wish you the best of success selling Lunchboxes.
 
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Silly stuff. Certainly, speakers have far more variability in their sound, but if you can't hear differences in amps than you are wasting your time and ours with your audio opinions based on poor hearing.
 
timofred said:
Do all cars over $50,000 drive the same ??
No.

Different chassis, design, engineering, components.
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Oh dear, what a ridiculous statement.

Perhaps, if amplifiers were combustion driven with many moving parts and had to perform within the realm of motion, this comment would have a chance of being a relevant comparison.

As to the original topic, I have a hard time accepting that amps (of comparable specs) really sound that different. I'm more inclined to go with the notion that the pre section is where difference will come from.

I've compared a vintage Mitsubishi pre/power combo with a NAD integrated and heard no differences of note. When I bought my NAD, I directly compared it to an LFD Minstrel. The only difference I THOUGHT I heard was a touch more depth in the soundstage from the NAD. Thought is the key word here as I ultimately feel the brain plays as much or more of a part in this hobby than the ears.

Having said that, I'm not trying to invalidate the hobby. Our brains make us what we are. They are all different and impact us in ways that we don't fully understand or are even aware of. Some hear differences, some do not.

I feel fortunate to be mostly of the latter. I'm more easily satisfied and won't spend as much money as someone in the former likely will. :D
 
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