bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
You'd just get 1200hz crossovers, eminence offers a pretty good variety.
Altec horns coming!
- Thread starter spaceman
- Start date
The cost of the two Eminence passives plus L-pads gets you 80% of the way to going full active with CX3400, assuming you've got a second amp.
With that comes adjustable frequencies, delay, stock HF compensation, ability to go three-way with sub, etc.. It's 4th-order L/R filters, as well, the industry standard.
Can you use a favorite custom passive compensation filter outboard of an active crossover? Yup, no problem, typically, after the amp.... :thmbsp:
Redboy's using the 800 Hz Eminence with 511B horns, and I worked out a compensation network for his BMS drivers using those. Can you run 811Bs at 800 Hz? Sure. Is that optiomum? Not without compensation, most likely. There is also the issue of how well the woofer plays at 1200 Hz vs. 800 Hz.
There are other, perhaps better, options for 811B owners, including a generic version of the Model 19 crossover, or the 846 asymmetric 2nd-order plus T-filter or other compensation, in addition to the active solution I am advocating here.
Yes, I've tried all of these, as you've seen in these forums. Why do I come out strongly in favor of the active approach? Because I know chances are pretty good in DIY that you'll be wanting to try other, different, stuff in the future, and active provides a versatile platform for conveniently accomplishing that.
If you're upgrading a specific system, use passive. If you're "experimenting," go active.... :yes:
With that comes adjustable frequencies, delay, stock HF compensation, ability to go three-way with sub, etc.. It's 4th-order L/R filters, as well, the industry standard.
Can you use a favorite custom passive compensation filter outboard of an active crossover? Yup, no problem, typically, after the amp.... :thmbsp:
Custom order, I believe.
Redboy's using the 800 Hz Eminence with 511B horns, and I worked out a compensation network for his BMS drivers using those. Can you run 811Bs at 800 Hz? Sure. Is that optiomum? Not without compensation, most likely. There is also the issue of how well the woofer plays at 1200 Hz vs. 800 Hz.
There are other, perhaps better, options for 811B owners, including a generic version of the Model 19 crossover, or the 846 asymmetric 2nd-order plus T-filter or other compensation, in addition to the active solution I am advocating here.
Yes, I've tried all of these, as you've seen in these forums. Why do I come out strongly in favor of the active approach? Because I know chances are pretty good in DIY that you'll be wanting to try other, different, stuff in the future, and active provides a versatile platform for conveniently accomplishing that.
If you're upgrading a specific system, use passive. If you're "experimenting," go active.... :yes:
bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
Those bastards!
I stand corrected, Zilch is absolutely correct. They jump from 800 to 1.6K.
Martin Sound Products: http://www.martinsoundpro.com/item.asp?id=312#341
I just avoided the bi-amp scenario as that gets into changing system character and by the time you factor the total expenditure of an active network, additional power amplifier, interconnects, speaker cables, etc. when the OP was simply about a passive solution.
OTOH, if the OP has the space, gear, and or revenue along with the interest........................
Just my .02 y'all understand..............................
spaceman
Registered Lunatic
Sometimes I need a good whack in the head to see things right, lol, but not this time.
Clearly, you know what you're talking about, so the CX3400 automatically goes on the short list, but are there others you like too? I just think it would be sensible to at least look at a few models, before buying.
There are others, of course, and we can get into a huge discussion about which is/are better - Rane, Ashley, JBL Urei, the digitals, and what features they have (or lack,) etc.Sometimes I need a good whack in the head to see things right, lol, but not this time.
I picked this one because it is inexpensive, has a bunch of features, is analog, and sounds good. The fact that Theophile uses and likes it carries considerable weight with me, despite (or, perhaps, because of) our differences in perspective on other matters. I also measured it with Valencia drivers on 811B horns, and the built-in generic HF compensation worked well with those.
Check with your local Guitar Center or similar pro audio retailer, and online pricing at other sources. You should be able to find it at ~$100. Bowtie's right, you'll also need XLR to RCA cables or adapters, so budget an additional $20 to $50 for the requisite "ancillaries" to make it all run. :yes:
I am not familiar with the receivers you mentioned you have. I assume there is a preamp output for an active crossover to work with? It is either inserted directly after a source, or between the preamp and amp(s). In some systems, it can go in a tape monitor loop, as well....
spaceman
Registered Lunatic
Well, I see guitar center has them on sale for $99, if I get there before 6 PM, & XLR-RCA adaptors are $5 apiece. I have no experience with XLR, but am I right in thinking I'd need 4 adaptors? EDIT: Hopefully, I can find a knowledgeable salesperson there, to help me out. Just noticed this is post # 2112 for me, which is kinda cool, I just picked up Rush's 2112 CD a couple days ago. 
Six. Two inputs and four outputs.
I don't like the adapters hanging out the back, so I use cables. They'll have those, also, but they're going to be a bit more $$$.
Negotiate.... :yes:
Any problems hooking up, configuring, or running, let us know. We'll want pics, of course.
Show us how to do this active bi-amp thing, Spaceman! :yes:
Rule #1: Amps off first, on last.
[I wonder what Tom's using with his Bowties (top).... :scratch2: ]
Attachments
The Teac T-amp is on the 902-bowties, a compensation network is used. The QSC is driving the woofers of the 605s. ART active crossover set at 1200hz.
spaceman
Registered Lunatic
Well, in for a penny, in for a pound. Guitar Center was VERY busy today, and the guy who eventually waited on me didn't have a clue what I was looking for, but another guy did, and once I got him on the right page of their website, lol, I got it for the sale price, which was about $30 off. I went ahead & splurged on the cables, Live Wires, and after everything was rung up, I noticed that he was selling me 6 male XLR cables, when I needed 2 male & 4 female. :nono: I'm glad I caught that, the trip downtown is a bit of an ordeal. Nothing's hooked up yet, but I found the owner's manual, & barely browsed it, so still need to read it good at least once before proceeding. :yes: I noticed that Behringer's main U.S. offices are right here in Washington, Bothell to be precise, which I've been through several times, maybe 10 miles from me. This looks like the real goods alright, and I noticed in the paperwork that it uses good Alps pots, & a torroidal transformer. :thmbsp: I might get her hooked up later tonight, but chances are I'll just rest & read. 
Guitar Center was VERY busy today, and the guy who eventually waited on me didn't have a clue what I was looking for, but another guy did, and once I got him on the right page of their website, lol, I got it for the sale price, which was about $30 off. I went ahead & splurged on the cables, Live Wires, and after everything was rung up, I noticed that he was selling me 6 male XLR cables, when I needed 2 male & 4 female. :nono: I'm glad I caught that, the trip downtown is a bit of an ordeal. Nothing's hooked up yet, but I found the owner's manual, & barely browsed it, so still need to read it good at least once before proceeding. :yes: I noticed that Behringer's main U.S. offices are right here in Washington, Bothell to be precise, which I've been through several times, maybe 10 miles from me. This looks like the real goods alright, and I noticed in the paperwork that it uses good Alps pots, & a torroidal transformer. :thmbsp: I might get her hooked up later tonight, but chances are I'll just rest & read.
Cool, Spaceman. I'm pleased you got such a good price. Welcome to "Biampdom." You were a quick study on XLR cable requirements, apparently. 
:
Thank you, Tom, for the rundown on your hookup. I hope readers unfamiliar with this approach are getting a better understanding of it from the actual applications here. :thmbsp:
[RTA in that stack soon, maybe.... ]
:Thank you, Tom, for the rundown on your hookup. I hope readers unfamiliar with this approach are getting a better understanding of it from the actual applications here. :thmbsp:
[RTA in that stack soon, maybe....
]
Spaceman,
The Behringer CX 3400 active crossover is the victim of the usual Behringer bashing which occurs on the web(not from any of the posters on this thread or forum).
Because Behringer produces some extremely inexpensive products,the assumption is that they cannot be any good.
Expensive does not = good
Inexpensive does not = bad.
My first purchase of a Behringer active crossover occured when I was chasing a second-hand EV active crossover.
I had contacted a seller of a second-hand EV on the Gold Coast here in Australia.After travelling the 200+ kilometers to purchase the unit,the jackass decided that he didn't want to sell it. :nono: :thumbsdn:
I was looking in a musical equipment store on the Gold Coast and saw a new EV crossover of the same model as the one I was going to purchase second-hand for $700 Aussie dollars.Below it on the same rack was the Behringer CX 2310 active crossover,which was selling for $199.I asked the salesman what the difference was between the two units.He told me that I wouldn't hear any difference.
That impressed me.
He essentially had just put $500 back into my pocket,because I had been prepared to buy the EV.
Fast forward to a couple of years later.I had purchased the Kenwood 700C,a stunning sounding vintage preamp.I wanted to try out the CX 3400's time delay option(which is unavailable on the 2310),so I purchased one of them.Swapping the two units was simple,and I adjusted the settings on the new CX3400 to match the settings on the 2310(I hadn't dialed in any time delay yet).
The CX 3400 blew the CX 2310 out of the water.
This surprised me,because surely they were essentially the same unit under the skin, merely differing on the number of output channels and the time delay feature. :scratch2:
I have seen somewhere on the web,a fellow who owns both the CX 3400 and the much vaunted Marchand tube active crossover,who stated that the CX 3400 sounded the same as his Marchand.
That I cannot confirm(though it surprised me).
I've applied a few selected tweeks to my system and have found the CX 3400 sufficiently transparent to allow the effect of them to be readily apparent.
I'm going to tweek my CX 3400 with the addition of a few passive op-amps for the 4580s in the unit,but until then I am not in any anxiety about the sound of the stock unit,as it's pretty damn good as it stands.
I've been active with my Altecs for a few years now,and I wouldn't go back.
Good luck with yours. :thmbsp:
After seeing in the New Year with a double shift which started at 15:30 on New Years Eve,and finished on 07:00 New Years Day,I've managed to get about six hours sleep(which is damn good for me after a night shift),and I'm gonna crank-up the system real soon.
Happy New Year all. :yes:
Here's to lot's of good listening. :thmbsp:
The Behringer CX 3400 active crossover is the victim of the usual Behringer bashing which occurs on the web(not from any of the posters on this thread or forum).
Because Behringer produces some extremely inexpensive products,the assumption is that they cannot be any good.
Expensive does not = good
Inexpensive does not = bad.
My first purchase of a Behringer active crossover occured when I was chasing a second-hand EV active crossover.
I had contacted a seller of a second-hand EV on the Gold Coast here in Australia.After travelling the 200+ kilometers to purchase the unit,the jackass decided that he didn't want to sell it. :nono: :thumbsdn:
I was looking in a musical equipment store on the Gold Coast and saw a new EV crossover of the same model as the one I was going to purchase second-hand for $700 Aussie dollars.Below it on the same rack was the Behringer CX 2310 active crossover,which was selling for $199.I asked the salesman what the difference was between the two units.He told me that I wouldn't hear any difference.
That impressed me.
He essentially had just put $500 back into my pocket,because I had been prepared to buy the EV.
Fast forward to a couple of years later.I had purchased the Kenwood 700C,a stunning sounding vintage preamp.I wanted to try out the CX 3400's time delay option(which is unavailable on the 2310),so I purchased one of them.Swapping the two units was simple,and I adjusted the settings on the new CX3400 to match the settings on the 2310(I hadn't dialed in any time delay yet).
The CX 3400 blew the CX 2310 out of the water.
This surprised me,because surely they were essentially the same unit under the skin, merely differing on the number of output channels and the time delay feature. :scratch2:
I have seen somewhere on the web,a fellow who owns both the CX 3400 and the much vaunted Marchand tube active crossover,who stated that the CX 3400 sounded the same as his Marchand.
That I cannot confirm(though it surprised me).
I've applied a few selected tweeks to my system and have found the CX 3400 sufficiently transparent to allow the effect of them to be readily apparent.
I'm going to tweek my CX 3400 with the addition of a few passive op-amps for the 4580s in the unit,but until then I am not in any anxiety about the sound of the stock unit,as it's pretty damn good as it stands.
I've been active with my Altecs for a few years now,and I wouldn't go back.
Good luck with yours. :thmbsp:
After seeing in the New Year with a double shift which started at 15:30 on New Years Eve,and finished on 07:00 New Years Day,I've managed to get about six hours sleep(which is damn good for me after a night shift),and I'm gonna crank-up the system real soon.
Happy New Year all. :yes:
Here's to lot's of good listening. :thmbsp:
Thank you, Tom, for the rundown on your hookup. I hope readers unfamiliar with this approach are getting a better understanding of it from the actual applications here. :thmbsp:
[RTA in that stack soon, maybe....
That's the bedroom rig and the one I play with, the Nineteens are my anti-anxiety speakers and are left stock and alone.
As you noted active crossovers are great tools and make initial setup so easy. When I first used the bowties a simple twist of the knob allowed me to hear the superiority of a 1200hz crossover compared to 800hz.
The first one I had was Bi-Amp brand model I used for my band PA back in 19 and 77, I took it home and started using it with my hi-fi. An interesting use was combining Klipsch LaScala basshorns below 400hz with Magnepan MG-Is above 400.
I used to use a nice Technics RTA which had an excellent and accurate Panasonic mic but I sold it during a gear purge, now I have an old Audio Control RTA (traded some Fostex drivers for it to one of the fellas here) but lack a good mic, a trip to Guitar Center this week for a Berhinger mic is in the works..
Paul C
Super Member
Yeah, I was thinking about the Eminince crossovers, but wouldn't you need to swap inductors as well as caps, to get to the 1200 Hz level? I'll be looking a lot closer soon here, no huge rush, especially on a holiday. Speaking of the New Year, my local classic rock station is doing that "top 1,000 songs" thing, so it's a pretty nice way to break these in to my system. As good as they sound, I can't stop thinking that they'll sound MUCH better, once I get the crossovers dialed in.
To get to 1200 hz it is just easier to build the crossover from scratch. I have done several using the Model 19 crossover schematic. This has the assymetrical crossover as Zilch describes PLUS some HF compensation.
But the active crossover with horn comp seems to be easiest!
Thanks Theo and Paul for your support. This had better work for you Spaceman, or we're all gonna be plenty, uhmm ..., disappointed. :
:Are you using this comp filter you posted in another thread, Tom? If so, I have some sims. :yes:
gonzomeep
Super Member
I look forward to viewing what you find out, coupled with your own vast expertise with many of my personal favorites. Should be something. We'll all benefit from what you have to say. Good move Tom. I may come off a little rough sometimes, but I do repsect your opinions. Git-R-Done Maestro.
bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
Theo, this is just my .02 based on observation and experience.
The behringer experience isn't always lined with gold. Part of the methodology used to maintain such a low pricepoint on their gear is the absence of, or very loose and minimal quality control.
During the first year or two of production, half the DCX2496's they made failed, many within their first few hours of use, and some right out of the box. My first one failed(3 yrs ago), took over ten weeks to resolve the issue thru Behringer. I tried the DBX Driverack PA after that, didn't "sound" as good as the CX 2300 at almost twice the cost of the DCX.
Now that the issues have been resolved i once again am running DCX2496, with complete success this time around, and it is proving to be a better solution than any analog active i've used. I cannot come up with a negative or complaint about it's sound, from a sonic performance and feature viewpoint it should cost several times what it does.
Of course the other side of this coin is that a lot of guys bash the behringer gear because many times it equals if not outperforms gear that they've paid hundreds of dollars more for.
My wag is that they left the 3400 alone while they revised the 2300 into the 2310 a few years back.
I have an older CX2300 with delay, mono sum for the LF outs, and CD horn compensation. If you held a 2300 and a 2310 in your hands, you wouldn't think they were made by the same company. The 2310 has the finish and feel of a genuine POS. Careful shoppers can still snag a 2300 on that auction site for just pennies on the dollar of what new costs.
Just parroting what other's have said about the ECM8000, better than the DBX mic and approaching par with the expensive big boys.
In the next few weeks i'm going to flip a few raw altec components to finance a DEQ2496 and ECM8000, then i'm going to be a measuring maniac.:yes:
Just an FYI for the lurkers and followers, BBE makes 2 digital units the DS24 and DS26 that fall somewhere between the DCX2496 and the analog units.
http://www.bbesound.com/products/LMS/DS24/index.asp
http://www.bbesound.com/products/LMS/DS26/index.asp
The BBE's don't have the full line of features of the DCX, but can be had for not a lot more than the CX3400. I've spent some time with a buddy's DS26, and once you get past it's red anodized face it's another very good unit for not a lotta $$$.