Altec horns coming!

[gonzomeep]

Using the limiter is a safeguard. Once you match the woofer amp with the horn amp, you will probably have a 10db or greater difference in gain. Depending on the input sensitivity of the amp driving the horn, and the output of the source, you may not be safe @ 0db (which I believe is unity gain, or 1:1 ratio I/O. I run JBL comp. drivers, powered by tube amps with no gain control pots on them. I have to run the channel output gain @ - 12.5db (minus) and the limiter @ - 6.5db (minus), just to ensure that I don't pop a 'phragm (that and a lot of caution with the volume control). I would set the output gain as low as can be( and the limiter about 6-8dbs over that once you get it right), then turn it up to match the woofers. Remember that most comp drivers will give you better than 105db @ 1w1m. It will take but milliwatts to drive them to a comfortable level.

 

[Zilch]

Well, I swapped things around last night, and it definitely did the trick, the sound is SO much better now. Not only did I find my missing mids, but it seemed to make what I was already hearing before sound more matched and musical, at the same time, like we wanted all along.

I must say I'm enormously pleased this has worked for you, as the others who helped out are as well, no doubt. Enjoy your new Altec horns. Those who know more about them than me will likely be willing to advise you as to how to optimize their performance. :thmbsp:

[O.K., folks, he's using them big words now (Constant Directivity,) so inquiries with respect to how to do this may henceforth be directed to our new hands-on expert in active biamping of Altec horns -- SPACEMAN! : ]

 

[spaceman]

Expert? I had no idea you were such a truth-stretcher, lol. Thanx again to all of you, and the audio gods, for my good fortune in finding them. :yes: I'll be happy to help anyone with questions, but in case it's not already obvious, my "technical background" is pretty limited, and I'm still figuring things out. I still haven't even been to Behringer's website yet, to see what might be useful there, but will do so very soon.

 

[spaceman]

Gads, I'm an idiot. I didn't have the x-over buttons on the back in the x10 position, until just awhile ago. I think it's good that I acknowledged the audio gods, because they must have been looking out for me. :yes: It's probably a very good thing that I never really cranked it up yet, as I noticed the amps running a little warm, & was concerned, but didn't realize what was going on yet. At this point, I have the buttons in the x10 position, the crossover points @ 1200Hz on the front, input levels @ 0, CD button on, and everything else on the Behringer is at their lowest settings. NOW, I think I finally have it right, because the sound is just awesome, and nothing's running warm, lol. I'm still just using the Sansui's tuner as a source, and right after I got things straight, they played a nice little set of Heart's "Barracuda", the Eagles' "Tequila Sunrise", a Chicago song that I'm not sure the title of, with "I'd like to know, can you tell me, please don't tell me" in the lyrics, Zeppelin's "When the Levy Breaks", and Boston's "Smokin'". What an excellent choice of songs to hear, as the first songs listened to on my system when things are set up correctly. Everything sounds so clear & natural, especially horns, percussion, & keyboards, it sounds like they're playing in my room.

 

[bowtie427ss]

I didn't have the x-over buttons on the back in the x10 position, until just awhile ago.

That statement pretty much explains this one from a few posts back.:yes:

The only thing that's kinda missing, is the higher LF & lower mid area

Thank those audio Gods often, and yourself for not just blasting it to the hilt right away.:thmbsp:

Altec actually used 806 driver in a special application(acoustic tube delay, see the post by Bfish at Altec board) where they were driven all the way down to 75hz, allbeit with a small signal.

 

[gonzomeep]

Good job!

I'm glad that you're finally enjoying your new active system. I've been a fan of active systems for a few years now. Lots of options with this type of system, especially with amps. Sounds like they're "in the room" huh? Now you can get an idea of what this 4 way active JBL system might sound like:

 

[bowtie427ss]

Gonzo, i'm pretty sure one of those 076's keeps winkin' at me.

I still think the same thing i've thought since i first saw a pic of your JBL's, "damn those are nice!":thmbsp:

Did that used to be a server rack? I'm diggin the color, almost vintage Altec shade.

 

[gonzomeep]

Thanks Buddy. Yeah, I just picked up the rack. I thought about re painting it, but the color kinda grew on me. It has a lot of ventilation, including the top piece that stands-off the frame about an inch. Gotta keep air around those tube amps.
The elliptical large format horns on the top (w/2441) and the elliptical small format horns (w/2421) in place of the stock 5" cone midranges in the L220 are the bomb! I can understand what spaceman is hearing and I dig that! Thank God for all the new active crossover designs. No muss, no fuss. I've got my system just about completely fine tuned. Now and again, I'll make a .5db change.
I find that the recording quality is the issue, rather than the settings.
I don't know if the unit spaceman uses has memory presets like my DSC260, but it's nice to have a few different curves set for different types of music/recording qualites.

 

[bowtie427ss]

It has a lot of ventilation, including the top piece that stands-off the frame about an inch.

Noticed that and assumed ventilation, that should "chimney" nicely without the help or noise of fans.

I am so hearing you about the variations in recordings, if a half db of adjustment is doin for ya, then you're privy to some pretty good recordings. My best recorded music has made other stuff that i really like, but of lesser recording quality nearly unlistenable on my basement system. Tom Petty for example suffers terribly, it's horribly compressed, dry and lifeless, and i honestly never realized how bad the engineering and recording is on his albums. I just slap
on some Dire Straits or JJ cale, and all is right with the world once again.

Spaceman is using the Behringer Analog 3 way(CX3400) i'm pretty sure, he won't have the luxury of presets until he upgrades to the DCX2496 someday in the future.

 

[Zilch]

Gads, I'm an idiot. I didn't have the x-over buttons on the back in the x10 position, until just awhile ago.

***Zilch slaps Spaceman with the CX3400 manual (Portugese)***​

 

[spaceman]

***Zilch slaps Spaceman with the CX3400 manual (Portugese)***​

Ha, it wouldn't have mattered if it was Portugese, English, or Chinese, it all looks Russian when you're new to it. gonzomeep, that whole setup looks REALLY sweet, and reinforces my need to get the Fisher going, for tubed HF. :drool: And I really need one of those cabinets too, even if it's not in that cool Altec color. :yes:

 

[gonzomeep]

Ha, it wouldn't have mattered if it was Portugese, English, or Chinese, it all looks Russian when you're new to it. gonzomeep, that whole setup looks REALLY sweet, and reinforces my need to get the Fisher going, for tubed HF. :drool: And I really need one of those cabinets too, even if it's not in that cool Altec color. :yes:

I've really enjoyed watching your experience unfold. I can can relate to what you're doing. Whether it be your system, a Zilchified 2 way special, or a fairly complex system like I have built for myself, I think the key is in the horns/comp. drivers. Once you hear a good horn/comp. driver combo, I cannot imagine that you would settle for anything else. Get that 800C working and give it a go. Don't stop there. If it is out of spec, don't decide that tube amps and horn/comp. driver combos are not for you. It's a whole new audio world, isn't it?

 

[bowtie427ss]

Everything sounds so clear & natural, especially horns, percussion, & keyboards, it sounds like they're playing in my room.

And that's the "magic" you'll hear referred to over and over. It's the indicator that "you've got it right".:yes::thmbsp:

To parrot Gonzo's post, it's always a pleasure to witness someone else have "the experience" of good horns that are well on the path of being dialed in.

 

[similost]

I hate you all!!!!!!

Sitting here talking about your dialed in horns, perfect crossovers, wonderful sound....

Well the hell with you all.... Hopefully in a week or two I can start rubbing everyone else's nose in having those perfect dialed in horns too

Man.. the pain is killing me... but my biggest issue will be getting the DCX since that's gonna be another wad of money.. I guess I'll be listening to these for a short while with the home made 1200 XO's that will be included.. BUT.. .I'll be listening to some great drivers too!!!!

OH.. I had a comment too about Tom saying the Behringer mixing board may not be aesthetically appealing to the eye.... EH.. I guess we all have different taste, because I sure do think it's a hell of a lot cooler to look at than a little black or silver box with a couple knobs to twist... LOTS of knobs and sliders sure looks a lot more impressive to me.. especially when they have a lot of little lights that will flicker too and I do agree completely about how quiet these MX boards are... The only sound I get from mine is coming from my TV cable. Once I mute those channels, it's dead quiet.. a really nice neutral sounding pre... You won't get me to part with mine..

 

[Duffinator]

Whether it be your system, a Zilchified 2 way special, or a fairly complex system like I have built for myself, I think the key is in the horns/comp. drivers. Once you hear a good horn/comp. driver combo, I cannot imagine that you would settle for anything else.

Amen to that! :yes:

Spaceman, cool project but where's the pictures???

 

[spaceman]

Well, after enjoying the great sounds for a couple hours last night, my curiosity started acting up, about the different crossover points. So I set them to the stock 800 Hz., and immediately found that midrange blare that was mentioned earlier. The adjustments go in steps of 200 Hz., so I tried 1000 Hz. 1200 Hz. & 1400 Hz., and saw for myself that 1200 Hz. really is the best setting. Not that I really doubted it at all, I guess I just wondered if my system reacted differently than others', due to a different amp or woofer or something. And there's nothing like seeing for yourself, to put any doubts or uncertainty to rest. :yes: I guess my next step would be to aquire some of those new-fangled aluminum diaphragms, to see if they really are better than Symbiotics.

 

[similost]

That's the spirit.. Keep playing to find what you like best! :thmbsp:

 

[spaceman]

Amen to that! :yes:

Spaceman, cool project but where's the pictures???

Hey Duffinator, almost missed your post, this thread's getting kinda long. I'll be getting pics up sometime fairly soon, I hope. Still need a new camera, and spent all my dollars on other things.

 

[Zilch]

Well, after enjoying the great sounds for a couple hours last night, my curiosity started acting up, about the different crossover points. So I set them to the stock 800 Hz., and immediately found that midrange blare that was mentioned earlier. The adjustments go in steps of 200 Hz., so I tried 1000 Hz. 1200 Hz. & 1400 Hz., and saw for myself that 1200 Hz. really is the best setting. Not that I really doubted it at all, I guess I just wondered if my system reacted differently than others', due to a different amp or woofer or something. And there's nothing like seeing for yourself, to put any doubts or uncertainty to rest. :yes:

I'm going to put a little bit of my own "spin" on that, Spaceman: This is physical stuff, and it has attributes. Over time, the common experience of many users has focused in on what performance envelope those define for the 811B horn, and that does not change, basically; neither is that significantly altered by other elements associated with them, generally speaking. Almost nothing anyone might want to do with 811Bs will alter the fundamentals. Get those in place, and they will play their best for you. :thmbsp:

I guess my next step would be to aquire some of those new-fangled aluminum diaphragms, to see if they really are better than Symbiotics.

Everyone's gonna yell at me, but put the Radians on your list. While I have not studied them in detail, I did measure one and listened to it briefly; it was "fine." The construction is similar to the Symbiotic: aluminum diaphragm with Mylar surround, as I recall:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=156257#post156257

 

[similost]

Can you tell me Zilch, what the difference between the 811b and the 511 horns are? Does this have to do with the bottom roll-off freq for the horn, being 500, and 800hz? They seem to look the same physically to me, but then again, I've never seen them side by side..