Amplifier recommendation

[swechsler]

I see what you mean here... I figured the Tape recorder connection where for a line-level input, no? will that loop just pass through an un-equalized signal? ... I suppose I don't exactly know the point of those connections?

The original point was the the EQ originally took up the tape monitor loop where you would have you connected your tape deck, and the tape connection on the EQ gives you an alternative. On the Bose EQ, the tape output will be unequalized. On the ADC, you should have the option to EQ or not to EQ the tape output. In both cases, in unequalized, they're probably just paralleled to the line input jacks (although it's possible that the ADC used a buffer amp, I doubt the Bose would have).

 

[mchriste]

Im getting it now. It weird to me that there is no balance control and A-B speaker switch. SO if I get this setup I wont be able to turn off the Bose or the Vegas independently. I'm not sure that's important or not. Currently I do like to hear one or the other on occasion but it really sounds best when all four are going. I also need to experiment with the position of the Bose, I pretty much bought them and set them up as fast as I could because I was excited. I have a longer wall that might be better for them but I had already plan to build cabinets for my snare drums, stereo, albums and cd's on the wall shorter wall.

I see. I think you could just turn off the relevant EQ. Turn off the ADC, just listen to the Bose speakers, and vice versa.

 

[peterp1]

Im getting it now. It weird to me that there is no balance control and A-B speaker switch. SO if I get this setup I wont be able to turn off the Bose or the Vegas independently. I'm not sure that's important or not. Currently I do like to hear one or the other on occasion but it really sounds best when all four are going. I also need to experiment with the position of the Bose, I pretty much bought them and set them up as fast as I could because I was excited. I have a longer wall that might be better for them but I had already plan to build cabinets for my snare drums, stereo, albums and cd's on the wall shorter wall.

As inelegant as it is, you could actually use a pair of inline RCA volume controls in the preamp feed to the Bose and Cerwin channels. I've used these RCA volumes to "volume match" sources for informal blind testing and they are completely transparent in my experience.

I was going to suggest adding one volume control inline anyway for whichever is the louder of the Bose or Cerwin speakers to balance the volume (since the speakers are very unlikely to have the same sensitivity, one pair will be louder than the other given equal input).

You could put a volume control on both paths to make it a "speaker switch" of sorts (just continously variable volume).

Inline RCA volume control:

Amazon.com

 

[myoldstereo]

As inelegant as it is, you could actually use a pair of inline RCA volume controls in the preamp feed to the Bose and Cerwin channels. I've used these RCA volumes to "volume match" sources for informal blind testing and they are completely transparent in my experience.

I was going to suggest adding one volume control inline anyway for whichever is the louder of the Bose or Cerwin speakers to balance the volume (since the speakers are very unlikely to have the same sensitivity, one pair will be louder than the other given equal input).

You could put a volume control on both paths to make it a "speaker switch" of sorts (just continously variable volume).

Inline RCA volume control:

Amazon.com

Thank you! Boy the ideas just keep flowing in. Will this degrade the sound quality in any way? Not an expensive item which is nice.

 

[myoldstereo]

I see. I think you could just turn off the relevant EQ. Turn off the ADC, just listen to the Bose speakers, and vice versa.

Sounds like I need to buy this amp and see for myself, hahah. I'm getting excited to pull the trigger but I'm still researching. Cant buy anything for a week or so anyway because some jackass used my credit card number and now I'm waiting for a new one.

 

[myoldstereo]

Been thinking this over for a few days. Did some searching on the internet and seen just how expensive these amps and preamps can get. I can't sink several thousand dollars into this but I could spend a grand or so. So the Emotiva is right there in that price range and looks to be pretty good stuff. I just wish there was a way to audition the amps but there is no where to go in our area. I don't mind spending the money, I just want it to be worth it. I'm sure it will be an improvement, just how much. Plus I am still a bit concerned that I can't turn off one set of speakers or the other. The little volume controller seems like it would work fine. And I could just turn off the eq to one or the other as suggested.
So, the bottom line is how much will my system improve? Will it be earthshattering difference or will it be just a little bit better? I assume my casset deck could connect to the preamp via the aux inputs? I'm excited to pull the trigger but still wondering if this is the way to go. My gut feeling says yes, what do you guys think?
Thank you for your time!
Jeff

 

[mchriste]

Been thinking this over for a few days. Did some searching on the internet and seen just how expensive these amps and preamps can get. I can't sink several thousand dollars into this but I could spend a grand or so. So the Emotiva is right there in that price range and looks to be pretty good stuff. I just wish there was a way to audition the amps but there is no where to go in our area. I don't mind spending the money, I just want it to be worth it. I'm sure it will be an improvement, just how much. Plus I am still a bit concerned that I can't turn off one set of speakers or the other. The little volume controller seems like it would work fine. And I could just turn off the eq to one or the other as suggested.
So, the bottom line is how much will my system improve? Will it be earthshattering difference or will it be just a little bit better? I assume my casset deck could connect to the preamp via the aux inputs? I'm excited to pull the trigger but still wondering if this is the way to go. My gut feeling says yes, what do you guys think?
Thank you for your time!
Jeff

I can really relate to your hesitation, it’s a lot of cheese… and you already like the sound you’re getting. My experience with Emotiva products is limited, but good. I wouldn’t hesitate to purchase the gear recommended to you here, if I needed it or desired it.
I wish I could say it’ll sound way better, but I’m not sure. I think the old AV receiver you’re currently running, while not “high end” or the last word in refinement and dynamics, it is likely a competently designed and executed amp. Another consideration it that your speakers ability to resolve a change in electronics that you can actually perceiv.
For yucks I looked up you Technics, it’s rated at 100wpc in 8ohms, but 40-20k hz with .8% THD, with a damping factor of 30.
the Emotiva amp in question is 100wpc in 8ohms, 20-20k hz with less than .1% THD, and notably a damping factor of more than 500. Those number indicate that the Emotiva is objectivly better… the pre amp section likely is too.
But will it be audibly better? I dunno.
BUT, go over to the Emotiva site and check out their return policy… you get 30 days no hassle return policy. If you think it’s not worth it after a couple weeks send it back!

 

[peterp1]

Been thinking this over for a few days. Did some searching on the internet and seen just how expensive these amps and preamps can get. I can't sink several thousand dollars into this but I could spend a grand or so. So the Emotiva is right there in that price range and looks to be pretty good stuff. I just wish there was a way to audition the amps but there is no where to go in our area. I don't mind spending the money, I just want it to be worth it. I'm sure it will be an improvement, just how much. Plus I am still a bit concerned that I can't turn off one set of speakers or the other. The little volume controller seems like it would work fine. And I could just turn off the eq to one or the other as suggested.
So, the bottom line is how much will my system improve? Will it be earthshattering difference or will it be just a little bit better? I assume my casset deck could connect to the preamp via the aux inputs? I'm excited to pull the trigger but still wondering if this is the way to go. My gut feeling says yes, what do you guys think?
Thank you for your time!
Jeff

Probably the first question you might want to answer before buying any equipment is where you really want to run both pairs of speakers simultaneously. It's not unusual for 2 speakers to sound better than 4. If you have all four speakers in different corners of the room, for example, some frequencies will cancel each other out and some will be boosted. Probably the best chance of 4 speakers sounding good is to stack them and make sure the speaker pairs are in phase. Still, you should try to listen to all four vs two. You could drop one Emotiva amp if you were only running one pair of speakers.

 

[myoldstereo]

I can really relate to your hesitation, it’s a lot of cheese… and you already like the sound you’re getting. My experience with Emotiva products is limited, but good. I wouldn’t hesitate to purchase the gear recommended to you here, if I needed it or desired it.
I wish I could say it’ll sound way better, but I’m not sure. I think the old AV receiver you’re currently running, while not “high end” or the last word in refinement and dynamics, it is likely a competently designed and executed amp. Another consideration it that your speakers ability to resolve a change in electronics that you can actually perceiv.
For yucks I looked up you Technics, it’s rated at 100wpc in 8ohms, but 40-20k hz with .8% THD, with a damping factor of 30.
the Emotiva amp in question is 100wpc in 8ohms, 20-20k hz with less than .1% THD, and notably a damping factor of more than 500. Those number indicate that the Emotiva is objectivly better… the pre amp section likely is too.
But will it be audibly better? I dunno.
BUT, go over to the Emotiva site and check out their return policy… you get 30 days no hassle return policy. If you think it’s not worth it after a couple weeks send it back!

Thanks for coming back! I did see the return policy and thought the same thing, I could return them if unhappy. But I really try to avoid returning anything, just trying to pack it like it was is a struggle sometimes. But its good to know I could do it, probably would be paying the freight on the way back though.
And thank you for looking up the Technics specs. The Emotiva certainly has better numbers on paper and should be much better. My Technics receiver does not have a DAC which I'm not exactly clear if that works with an analog turntable or not so will that be a factor? I thought DAC's were more for CD play.
I think with the way we ( you and peterp1) came up with the wiring diagram that lets me use two EQ's is brilliant. And it sounds like each speaker will receive the total 100 watts where I'm not sure what they are getting now. Then there is the Bluetooth thing. I do want to play files from my phone when learning new songs or just playing along for fun on my drums. Currently I have a RCA to 3.5mm wire that plugs into the amp that works fine. With Bluetooth I wouldn't need to worry about that. See, I'm talking myself into this!

 

[myoldstereo]

Probably the first question you might want to answer before buying any equipment is where you really want to run both pairs of speakers simultaneously. It's not unusual for 2 speakers to sound better than 4. If you have all four speakers in different corners of the room, for example, some frequencies will cancel each other out and some will be boosted. Probably the best chance of 4 speakers sounding good is to stack them and make sure the speaker pairs are in phase. Still, you should try to listen to all four vs two. You could drop one Emotiva amp if you were only running one pair of speakers.

Thank you for coming back as well! I agree totally with deciding on running all four speaks at the same time vs one pair at a time. This all started one day when I was in our basement looking for something and saw the old beat up Vegas in the corner. I have been wanting to fix them for years so I drug them out and the restoration began. Drivers and crossovers totally rebuilt, cabinets refinished, even made new grills and covered them myself. Got them done, wired them to the amp and I was very happy with the sound. Then I saw the Bose at a antique mall and ended up with them. Since the amp supports two sets of speakers I though why not use all four. I just wanted to explain why and how I got to this point, I picture you guys rolling your eyes and wondering why the heck would anyone do this. Well it just fell in my lap hahah.
So, I do listen to them both independently just to compare. In short the Vegas sound better but the high end is crazy, its like the tweeters are too much. The bass is what you would expect from Cerwin Vega, its awesome! The Bose sound good too but seem to lack the high end, they sound dull, like they need tweeters. Bass on the Bose is fine.
So now, all four together sound best to me. The Bose seem to fill in that midrange that the Vegas lack and the Vegas seem to provide the highs. The speakers are all on one wall ( 14'8") with the Vegas on the outside and the Bose positioned in the middle based on the recommended spacing from Bose. Now, one thing I have considered is placing the Bose on a different wall, its about 18' long. Keep my Vegas where they are and listen to one or the other. The Bose might sound better that way but the Vegas will not change. Problem is that it would take 50 feet or so of speaker wire to move the Bose to the other wall and from what I read that would require some hefty expensive wires.
So I am confident that you guys have picked the perfect setup for what I want to do. I think separating the Vegas from the Bose EQ is great and the flexibility to add the ADC to the Vegas is wonderful. The only thing I'm concerned about is will this new system be the one for years to come, will I be able to add anything or not, will I want to? I cant see needing anymore then a turntable, CD player, tape deck and my phone. I think the new system has it all and should serve me for many years possibly my lifetime. I think most likely any upgrade from here would be better speakers. But for now With the money invested in the speakers I have I need to use them for a while.
So here is my final thought. If I were to get the new gear I can get the Vegas away form the Bose EQ and dial them in with the ADC making them sound better. The Bose I just hope will improve with the cleaner amp and maybe the DAC will help too, not sure. And if I were to listen to one set at a time I can use the inline volume controls or some sort of speaker switch. All in all the Emotive gear is the best bang for my buck, I will never have a 50,000.00 system.
Thanks again, I appreciate everything very much!
PS, I attached an image I have been working on so you can see the current speaker placement.

Jeff

 

[myoldstereo]

Thanks to everyone for participating in this conversation. Pretty cool that people still like to help others even if they have never met. I would buy you all a beer (or soda) if I could.

Jeff

 

[peterp1]

Thank you for coming back as well! I agree totally with deciding on running all four speaks at the same time vs one pair at a time. This all started one day when I was in our basement looking for something and saw the old beat up Vegas in the corner. I have been wanting to fix them for years so I drug them out and the restoration began. Drivers and crossovers totally rebuilt, cabinets refinished, even made new grills and covered them myself. Got them done, wired them to the amp and I was very happy with the sound. Then I saw the Bose at a antique mall and ended up with them. Since the amp supports two sets of speakers I though why not use all four. I just wanted to explain why and how I got to this point, I picture you guys rolling your eyes and wondering why the heck would anyone do this. Well it just fell in my lap hahah.
So, I do listen to them both independently just to compare. In short the Vegas sound better but the high end is crazy, its like the tweeters are too much. The bass is what you would expect from Cerwin Vega, its awesome! The Bose sound good too but seem to lack the high end, they sound dull, like they need tweeters. Bass on the Bose is fine.
So now, all four together sound best to me. The Bose seem to fill in that midrange that the Vegas lack and the Vegas seem to provide the highs. The speakers are all on one wall ( 14'8") with the Vegas on the outside and the Bose positioned in the middle based on the recommended spacing from Bose. Now, one thing I have considered is placing the Bose on a different wall, its about 18' long. Keep my Vegas where they are and listen to one or the other. The Bose might sound better that way but the Vegas will not change. Problem is that it would take 50 feet or so of speaker wire to move the Bose to the other wall and from what I read that would require some hefty expensive wires.
So I am confident that you guys have picked the perfect setup for what I want to do. I think separating the Vegas from the Bose EQ is great and the flexibility to add the ADC to the Vegas is wonderful. The only thing I'm concerned about is will this new system be the one for years to come, will I be able to add anything or not, will I want to? I cant see needing anymore then a turntable, CD player, tape deck and my phone. I think the new system has it all and should serve me for many years possibly my lifetime. I think most likely any upgrade from here would be better speakers. But for now With the money invested in the speakers I have I need to use them for a while.
So here is my final thought. If I were to get the new gear I can get the Vegas away form the Bose EQ and dial them in with the ADC making them sound better. The Bose I just hope will improve with the cleaner amp and maybe the DAC will help too, not sure. And if I were to listen to one set at a time I can use the inline volume controls or some sort of speaker switch. All in all the Emotive gear is the best bang for my buck, I will never have a 50,000.00 system.
Thanks again, I appreciate everything very much!
PS, I attached an image I have been working on so you can see the current speaker placement.

Jeff

Beautiful room. I haven't played much with four speakers in stereo (hopefully somebody with direct experience will chime in) -- but I strongly suspect you'll get much better sound as you have it now than if you moved one pair to the opposite corners (I think random frequencies will cancel each other out with the speakers facing each other (I'd think maybe run one pair out of phase so the woofers are moving in the same direction -- but, again, hope somebody who has played with 4 speakers will chime in). I'd leave the speaker configuration as is for sure versus across the room.

The Bose EQ is pretty extreme -- so the CV's are getting hammered in high and low frequencies with the Bose EQ (as you are hearing). If you are committed to running all four speakers -- then the emotiva seems like a good route. I only glanced at this 901 review (https://noaudiophile.com/Bose_901/), but I think this is the EQ curve of the Bose EQ -- needed because there are no tweeters or deep bass woofers.

 

[myoldstereo]

Thanks Peter. My mind is made, Motiva is it. I wish you could hear this weird setup, I sure like it.
Now it's just a matter of if it fits the summer budget but I have ways to somehow make it work.
You guys did it. Came up with a system based on my needs, showed me how to wire it, what to buy and all the advice on the speakers. I can't thank you enough I Really appreciate it!!!
When I get this thing cooking I will certainly come back here and let you know how it's going.

Jeff

 

[myoldstereo]

Update, thought I would run the cv through the ADC to see how it sounds. Well the ADC had lost the left channel. So I tore it apart and gave it the deoxit treatment. It is now working fine. So the sound is good but can be improved. Maybe it's the speakers, they could be delivering the best they can. Or the amp is the problem. Also I do consider the fact that my hearing is bad. I do have trouble hearing detail. So maybe I just need new ears, not a new amp hahaha. And you know I'm gonna get that amp anyway.

 

[myoldstereo]

I think 1000.00 is a good investment to find out if my ears are the problem

 

[myoldstereo]

Well I ordered the BasxPT1 and the Basx4A amp. And they gave me 10% off for a new customer. So It ended up very close to my original budget of 800.00.
I cant wait, I'm gonna wire it up just like we discussed here and see what happens. I think this lower line of theirs is made overseas and not in Tennessee so it might take a while to receive it. I will let you know how it goes!

 

[myoldstereo]

As inelegant as it is, you could actually use a pair of inline RCA volume controls in the preamp feed to the Bose and Cerwin channels. I've used these RCA volumes to "volume match" sources for informal blind testing and they are completely transparent in my experience.

I was going to suggest adding one volume control inline anyway for whichever is the louder of the Bose or Cerwin speakers to balance the volume (since the speakers are very unlikely to have the same sensitivity, one pair will be louder than the other given equal input).

You could put a volume control on both paths to make it a "speaker switch" of sorts (just continously variable volume).

Inline RCA volume control:

Amazon.com

Not sure how to add this to wire diagram that we came up with.

 

[peterp1]

Not sure how to add this to wire diagram that we came up with.

With the addition of male couplers like below -- the volume control can effectively be the RCA cable you use between the Bose/ADC Equalizers and the amp. It also could go between the pre and the EQ's -- but I think it is better noise floor wise to attenuate after the EQ than before.

You should be able to split the 4 wires on the volume control by pulling them apart in the middle to form two pairs of RCA cables (one pair in, the other pair out). Not sure how long those wires are on the volume control, but that could be your RCA cable if it's long enough (the male couplers convert them to male).

https://www.amazon.com/VCE-5-Pack-C...-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1

It's probably a good idea to get deoxit cleaner and conditioner since you have so many connections -- especially for the Bose and ADC Eq since they are vintage and could probably use cleaning. I prefer the "brush on" to the spray for these RCA connectors. It's kind of pricey, but that stuff really does improve the connection. It is available affordably in tiny size (only 1.6ml per bottle), or (better value, but kind of expensive) in larger size (7.4ml):

Amazon.com

Amazon.com

 

[myoldstereo]

With the addition of male couplers like below -- the volume control can effectively be the RCA cable you use between the Bose/ADC Equalizers and the amp. It also could go between the pre and the EQ's -- but I think it is better noise floor wise to attenuate after the EQ than before.

You should be able to split the 4 wires on the volume control by pulling them apart in the middle to form two pairs of RCA cables (one pair in, the other pair out). Not sure how long those wires are on the volume control, but that could be your RCA cable if it's long enough (the male couplers convert them to male).

https://www.amazon.com/VCE-5-Pack-C...-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1

It's probably a good idea to get deoxit cleaner and conditioner since you have so many connections -- especially for the Bose and ADC Eq since they are vintage and could probably use cleaning. I prefer the "brush on" to the spray for these RCA connectors. It's kind of pricey, but that stuff really does improve the connection. It is available affordably in tiny size (only 1.6ml per bottle), or (better value, but kind of expensive) in larger size (7.4ml):

Amazon.com

Amazon.com

Thanks! I'm gonna have to soak this info in on the volume control and all of those male couplers, I'm a bit lost. But I hear you on the Deoxit cleaning. I already went through the ADC inside but I need to do all of the exterior connections. I want to get some new RCA cables, ever heard of Hosa? Sweetwater sells them. I don't have a ton of money to spend on those so think budget.

 

[myoldstereo]

Okay, I get the male couplers allow me to use the volume controls as RCA cables, I don't think they will be long enough so I might order some 12" RCA cables like these.

GEARit: RCA Cable

RCA Cable

www.amazon.com