whoaru99
Epic Member
Likely are not totally isolated. I still suggest a process of elimination to see if there is a specific component that has the leakage that's tripping the GFI.
It's your choice to try something like that or throw parts at it.
Another 3 Phase question
- Thread starter Capt Odyssea
- Start date
Likely are not totally isolated. I still suggest a process of elimination to see if there is a specific component that has the leakage that's tripping the GFI.
It's your choice to try something like that or throw parts at it.
Capt Odyssea
In Yamalibrium
To back to the original issue, all the 480 Switch gear, 480 transfer switch and Generator, and all step down gear was salt water wet, including the Power co 14Kv to 480 transformers.
It is a small island, and by bypassing all the destroyed 480 gear we were able to get one building up for business. The island needed us badly for restoration/reconstruction.
True Value Lumber yard and Hardware store.
The other major store (ACE) was destroyed and still isn't up and running. Since the storm two/three other small outfits have opened but we are the major outfit. Can't fault people for seeing an opportunity, you can if a few were your employees.
By using a 45Kw 208v Gen direct to 120/208 sub panels which were not wet, and then replacing the 45Kw with the 200kw Gen we were able to bring more and more of the plant online. 30K sq ft retail, 115k sq ft under roof. Should have been opening around now, but the three month Covid-19 lockdown pushed us back at least two months.
The only equipment that was at 480 were big 20 ton and 15 ton AC units, all destroyed.
They have all been replaced with 208 v frequency drive AC units for efficiency, and to eliminate the Power Co demand factor.
The whole issue was lead time on 480v switch gear and 6 internal step down transformers vs. 120/208 Generator and switch gear. (208 switch gear has only just arrived).
Yep, half the Voltage better double the ampacity for a given wire size however the loads are also halved.
Wire ain't cheap but it is available.
We took the hit but refuse to lie down.
My Electrician is about to be put off the job, total non performer to date. I'd be prepping everything prior to switch gear getting here. He hasn't.
Also bear in mind you can't do anything while we are up and running. Week End work only for major electrical.
Trust but Verify.
It is a small island, and by bypassing all the destroyed 480 gear we were able to get one building up for business. The island needed us badly for restoration/reconstruction.
True Value Lumber yard and Hardware store.
The other major store (ACE) was destroyed and still isn't up and running. Since the storm two/three other small outfits have opened but we are the major outfit. Can't fault people for seeing an opportunity, you can if a few were your employees.
By using a 45Kw 208v Gen direct to 120/208 sub panels which were not wet, and then replacing the 45Kw with the 200kw Gen we were able to bring more and more of the plant online. 30K sq ft retail, 115k sq ft under roof. Should have been opening around now, but the three month Covid-19 lockdown pushed us back at least two months.
The only equipment that was at 480 were big 20 ton and 15 ton AC units, all destroyed.
They have all been replaced with 208 v frequency drive AC units for efficiency, and to eliminate the Power Co demand factor.
The whole issue was lead time on 480v switch gear and 6 internal step down transformers vs. 120/208 Generator and switch gear. (208 switch gear has only just arrived).
Yep, half the Voltage better double the ampacity for a given wire size however the loads are also halved.
Wire ain't cheap but it is available.
We took the hit but refuse to lie down.
My Electrician is about to be put off the job, total non performer to date. I'd be prepping everything prior to switch gear getting here. He hasn't.
Also bear in mind you can't do anything while we are up and running. Week End work only for major electrical.
Trust but Verify.
Just a follow-up. I found the breaker through the bay and paid $60 + $25 S/H tax. Was $105+ elsewhere. It arrived yesterday.
I replaced the old one and the spa display came on. I ran the three pumps and blower together and nothing tripped. Hopefully, the old breaker had just gone wonky. Thanks guys.
that makes more sense if not all that much was 480v to begin with. Most of the equipment where I work runs on 480 because it just doesn't make sense to run it through transformers just so it can use double the current. Its all "dumb" stuff too, old school motor starters and the like. The bulk of the equipment was installed in the early 80s and the design has not really changed since.
nj pheonix
Lunatic Member
Maybe its not the breaker.
Maybe everything dried out when it wasn't in use so that when you started using again the fault wasn't present
Maybe everything dried out when it wasn't in use so that when you started using again the fault wasn't present
I opened it up and went through all of the connections, jiggled the various spades and plugs, and tightened terminal screws. I found that where the wires (#6) go into a conduit fitting that the internal plastic spacer had deteriorated, and perhaps the wires may have been chaffing on the metal insert. I wrapped this area with electrial tape and the breaker is not blowing..., at least for the moment.
I also disconnected the two heater leads at their relays (5 kW). The spa is supposed to maintain a temp of 80 degrees when not in use, and was 81 (typical and with no power on) before the breaker arrived. During the few days that it worked, the temp is now 89 degrees. But it could just as easily be that we are having a hot spell. Anyway, there is really no reason to keep it at 80 when not in use and the cooler it is the less chemical it uses and less chance of algae build-up. I guess that the relays controlling the heater will just remain activated if the spa doesn't reach 80 naturally from the sun/cover.
Let's keep our fingers crossed.
I also disconnected the two heater leads at their relays (5 kW). The spa is supposed to maintain a temp of 80 degrees when not in use, and was 81 (typical and with no power on) before the breaker arrived. During the few days that it worked, the temp is now 89 degrees. But it could just as easily be that we are having a hot spell. Anyway, there is really no reason to keep it at 80 when not in use and the cooler it is the less chemical it uses and less chance of algae build-up. I guess that the relays controlling the heater will just remain activated if the spa doesn't reach 80 naturally from the sun/cover.
Let's keep our fingers crossed.
No, it rarely gets used and the water is always in it. Certainly hasn't been used since well before any of this has occured. It cycles itself through its pumps/blower automatically on a daily routine.
nj pheonix
Lunatic Member
The nature of a GFI is it will detect any current flowing through a current carrying conductor and compare to return path, whether its a neutral or other leg of power circuit if it reads a discrepancy (even a few milliamps) it regards this as a ground fault. The reasoning being that path could be you. A small bit of moisture or carbonization from arcing, corrosion, and/or some dirt could conceivable provide enough of a current path to create this flow. It might not be easily narrowed down, depending on how much you're able to isolate the pieces in the circuit. That's what you're up against. I tend to think its not the breaker at this point though.
Agreed..., $85 later.
The really interesting thing is that the spa uses neither the white nor ground wire in the circuitry and both are mearly tied to the metal case. Everything runs on the 240 volt differential.
nj pheonix
Lunatic Member
Yes but for that to trigger, the current going out on the phase or phases isn't equal to the current returning on the other other phases. That difference is the leakage.
The trick is finding it
The trick is finding it
petehall347
the brandy coffee man
i always find neutral lines are at fault .
David_NC
Super Member
All of that should be programmable... at least it has been on the several I've had or helped set up. Ours has hot spa, cool spa, and maintain settings. We disabled the maintain temp feature.
80 degres is the minimum in the menu and I've never seen an override for this. This is a $10K spa made on 2/22/06.
https://www.sundancespas.com/en-us/product-list/marin
David_NC
Super Member
Weird. My old $2500 from the early '90's had that setting, but it was with mechanical thermostats and timers. I wonder if you could add relays to handle that. Something like disabling the elements until the main high-speed pump is on, assuming you use it that way. I know some who don't like jets.
Not a good idea. When the spa is 80 degrees, it will heat at a rate of about 5-6 degrees per hour on the recirculation pump. If you had to run the high speed pump for 3-4 hours to heat the spa, that's a lot of wasted electricity, and it would probably take longer to heat because you put some ambient air into the mixture.
I just pulled off the two heater leads. The heater is actually 5.5kW, so adding an external switch would require that it carry some real 240vac current.