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Another 3 Phase question

gadget73 said:
I'd put a switch in series with the relay that controls that. Much lower current. Just break the path to the relay coil.

Could be moisture in the motor or in the control box. Doesn't take much for GFCI to trip.
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Would require complete removal of the motherboard board to get to and cut the trace. Anyway, today it was 89, up a degree from yesterday, with no heater, so the heat of the day is driving the temp.

I will try disconnecting the motors (easy) to see if they could be the problem.
 
Not saying it's the problem but neutral and ground should only be together at panel. Not panel at tub.
Maybe I misread what you wrote.
Post #31
 
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nj pheonix said:
Not saying bit's the problem but neutral and ground should only be together at panel. Not panel at tub.
Maybe I misread what you wrote.
Post #31
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Yet the panel at the tub has provisions for both and both are connected (ground outside of the metal case and neutral inside the metal case) from the factory. And it has been like this working fine for years.

I think the next step is to disconnect the pumps and see if the problem persists. Perhaps one of the pumps is leaking a just bit, though I see no water under the unit, and it works until the pumps go through their daily cycle at which point it trips. When I wait for something, (e.g., new breaker), the motor has a chance to dry out, so it works again until it cycles.

When I get it to work, I do try the pumps, but only long enough to see that they work, and maybe that's not enough time to get it wet internally to trip. Possibility. :idea:
 
Running the wires is one thing. Detail of how they're connected is another.

If the hot tub truly is 240V only there is no need/point even to have a neutral. If it is a 120/240V system on the hot tub where a neutral comes into play, the neutral should be isolated from the equipment grounding wire everywhere except in the main breaker panel.

That said, to an earlier point, it can be hard to understand the whole picture from just words.
 
Mine is the Marin. Wiring diagram on page 64.
https://www.thespaworks.com/sites/default/files/2006_sundance_880_series_owners_manual.pdf

What I did was run 240, 4-wires from the main panel to the spa sub-panel (similar to that shown) with red, white, black, bare #6 wire.

s-l640.jpg


https://www.ebay.com/i/113302378963?chn=ps

When I went to connect the spa, I ran the four same wires from the sub-panel to the spa. When connecting the spa, I saw it had no neutral nor was one called in the wiring diagram, so I ran the ground wire to the ground terminal and I ran the white wire between the ground terminal in the sub-panel and the ground terminal on the inside of the spa's panel. So the white wire and bare ground wire to the spa are just redundant of each other. I've tried the white wire from the sub-panel to the spa on both the neutral (with the main panel's neutral and the GFI's neutral) and ground terminal in the sub-panel (which are also linked together though the case of the sub-panel on my ohmmeter), and get the same results.
 
Yeah, you will get common reading between Neutral and grounding wire because they are common in the main panel/service entrance. Once the neutral and grounding wire leave the main panel they are not supposed to be connected together.

Best case you have used incorrect wire color for grounding. Only bare, green, or green/yellow stripe for that.

Worst case, because it's still not clear from your description, you may have neutral and equipment ground connected when they should not be (outside the main/service entrance panel).

Presonally, I suggest ditching the white between the spa panel and the spa. Can't say if it's the problem but, as it is, is both confusing and not compliant with NEC.
 
whoaru99 said:
Yeah, you will get common reading between Neutral and grounding wire because they are common in the main panel/service entrance. Once the neutral and grounding wire leave the main panel they are not supposed to be connected together.

Best case you have used incorrect wire color for grounding. Only bare, green, or green/yellow stripe for that.

Worst case, because it's still not clear from your description, you may have neutral and equipment ground connected when they should not be (outside the main/service entrance panel).

Presonally, I suggest ditching the white between the spa panel and the spa. Can't say if it's the problem but, as it is, is both confusing and not compliant with NEC.
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Best case..., and I will apply a green marker to the white wire's exposed ends. Like I said, just a redundant ground.
 
toddalin said:
Like I said, just a redundant ground.
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Doesn't matter. It's not right. But, all I can do is point it out. It's up to you to make it right, or not.

The picture below shows the connections for the GFI breaker (yes, it's a spa panel) that I'm going to use when I get my electric home brewing boil kettle completed. This system will be 120/240V as I need 120V for the controls, so there has to be neutral wire from the source and to the loads.

For a 240V-only system there is no neutral wire required from the source nor to the loads.

This is an Eaton BR50SPAST panel.

GFI.png
 
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whoaru99 said:
Doesn't matter. It's not right. But, all I can do is point it out. It's up to you to make it right, or not.
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Agreed
There's a grounding and grounded conductor.
An electrical inspector would fail you if he caught it.
We all agree its not contributing to your gfi tripping issue.

Green marker wouldn't be an accepted method to identify that as a ground either. FWIW
 
Yes, that's an important distinction. The "neutral" wire is the grounded conductor. As a current-carrying conductor in some cases that's one of the reasons it is separate from the equipment grounding wire (safety ground). A "neutral" wire may (and usually will) be carrying some current in normal operation whilst the equipment grounding wire should never be carrying current during normal operation.
 
whoaru99 said:
Doesn't matter. It's not right. But, all I can do is point it out. It's up to you to make it right, or not.

The picture below shows the connections for the GFI breaker (yes, it's a spa panel) that I'm going to use when I get my electric home brewing boil kettle completed. This system will be 120/240V as I need 120V for the controls, so there has to be neutral wire from the source and to the loads.

For a 240V-only system there is no neutral wire required from the source nor to the loads.

This is an Eaton BR50SPAST panel.

View attachment 1925340
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And this is exactly how it is wired except that I didn't need the neutral wire to the spa so there is a redundant wire from the ground to the spa ground.

I installed the wires before the spa, so there was an extra white wire and I just put it to use as an added safety precaution. I couldn't see how it would hurt anything having two ground wires. Simple enough to disconnect and abandon in place, but I don't really see a need to do that. ;)
 
Update.

I tried disconnecting the heater and recirculating pump and the GFI still popped. Yesterday I reconnected those and disconnected the two high speed pumps. I reset the GFI and it held. :thumbsup:

I'll let it go another day to see that it holds then try to figure out which of the two high speed pumps is the problem. At least I can run the recirculation pump in the mean time.

Funny but the white color of the redundant ground wire didn't seem to matter to the operation. :no:
 
You'd have to check where they actually land in the disconnect. Possible both are actually going to ground and there is no neutral in the disco. If someone used 4 conductor cable rather than 3 to the spa, maybe they just landed the white wire as a ground to give it somewhere to go rather than leaving it hang loose.

but no, that won't be why the GFCI trips.
 
gadget73 said:
You'd have to check where they actually land in the disconnect. Possible both are actually going to ground and there is no neutral in the disco. If someone used 4 conductor cable rather than 3 to the spa, maybe they just landed the white wire as a ground to give it somewhere to go rather than leaving it hang loose.

but no, that won't be why the GFCI trips.
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I did the wiring, and yes both the white and bare ground wire are connected to the ground terminal on both ends rather than just letting the "extra" white wire hang loose on both ends.

Today it was still running with the recirculation pump and I reconnected the two high speed pumps, connecting each wire and trying it in turn each time I did (shutting down both breakers between connections) to see which wire/pump makes it pop. None did and both both high speed pumps run fine and show equal resistance between their hot leads and each of their hot lead to ground. :dunno: :crazy:

Anyway, I know all too well that it may take a day or so to manifest itself, and if and when it does, I'll try pulling off the wires one by one to see which is the culpret. :idea:
 
I think you're going to have to try leaving one thing out at a time until you isolate it.
I think you're close though
 
An auxiliary grounding electrode could be put at the tub, as long as it connects only to the equipment grounding wire, not the grounded wire/neutral.

That said, a GFI does not rely on equipment grounding connections for functionality so it seems to me doing so would not help in this situation.
 
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