Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your post here, but are you saying that the S55E (OE in my OP5) is intentionally voiced to be rolled off on the top end? I can say that is not the case at all with my OP5. :scratch2:
anyone else running vintage Empire carts?
- Thread starter gadget73
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Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your post here, but are you saying that the S55E (OE in my OP5) is intentionally voiced to be rolled off on the top end? I can say that is not the case at all with my OP5. :scratch2:
Ahhh, thanks for the clarification. I didn't realize the inductance was so different between the OP4 and OP5.
At least in the early Chunkies, the break point is between the 4/40/400 models and the 5/50/500s. My menagerie consists of an OP 2, 300 Z, LTD 400 and an LTD 450, all of which are 680 to 700mH. Then I have a couple of LTD 500s and an RM 50, which are around 350mH.
Then Empire messed up my nice neat theory by bringing out a 700mH LTD 550. Dewwwd. I knew they were serious about this when the TOTL p-mount, the 1080LT, was also 700mH. It seems that someone decided, after the run of the original model lines and their clones, that higher inductance for everything in the line was the way to go. CD-4 was dead; we were just going to concentrate on 20 to 20,000 because ultrasonics were messing up people's phono stages anyway.
Nothing wrong with this, of course, but you do begin to wonder what the response curve of the cantilever/damper/pivot system was before they clamped this big inductance down on it. Anyway, quickie listening test with the S500ID in the LTD 400 body, then the LTD 500 body, coming up.
Results: "Mr. Moto's Penguin" waddled pretty much as expected. The difference, since the all-important midrange and the lower treble are relatively unaffected, is subtle at first; nothing seems wrong. Then you notice the buzz of Mark Isham's trumpet is missing. The drums don't seem to have the same impact. In other words, it's nice and mellow and "musical", even "full" and "bass-fat", but it's also "dull" and "slow" and "lifeless", with no "detail". Switch back and you could easily imagine someone calling the stock stylus "too bright", "edgy", "sterile" and/or "analytical". It all depends on how carefully your system is set up and how well you know what's actually on the record. Having different cartridges helps-- at least one of them will have more treble detail, and you'll have a fighting chance of being right when you audition a certain body-stylus combo and think "hey, something's missing".
Could you live with a 2:1 cart/stylus inductance/voicing mismatch? If you have good tone controls (or better yet, an outboard parametric or third-octave graphic), you probably could. It all depends on your expectations. 2022 EDIT: adding link
Then Empire messed up my nice neat theory by bringing out a 700mH LTD 550. Dewwwd. I knew they were serious about this when the TOTL p-mount, the 1080LT, was also 700mH. It seems that someone decided, after the run of the original model lines and their clones, that higher inductance for everything in the line was the way to go. CD-4 was dead; we were just going to concentrate on 20 to 20,000 because ultrasonics were messing up people's phono stages anyway.
Nothing wrong with this, of course, but you do begin to wonder what the response curve of the cantilever/damper/pivot system was before they clamped this big inductance down on it. Anyway, quickie listening test with the S500ID in the LTD 400 body, then the LTD 500 body, coming up.
Results: "Mr. Moto's Penguin" waddled pretty much as expected. The difference, since the all-important midrange and the lower treble are relatively unaffected, is subtle at first; nothing seems wrong. Then you notice the buzz of Mark Isham's trumpet is missing. The drums don't seem to have the same impact. In other words, it's nice and mellow and "musical", even "full" and "bass-fat", but it's also "dull" and "slow" and "lifeless", with no "detail". Switch back and you could easily imagine someone calling the stock stylus "too bright", "edgy", "sterile" and/or "analytical". It all depends on how carefully your system is set up and how well you know what's actually on the record. Having different cartridges helps-- at least one of them will have more treble detail, and you'll have a fighting chance of being right when you audition a certain body-stylus combo and think "hey, something's missing".
Could you live with a 2:1 cart/stylus inductance/voicing mismatch? If you have good tone controls (or better yet, an outboard parametric or third-octave graphic), you probably could. It all depends on your expectations. 2022 EDIT: adding link
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Yes, I know I owe this thread a report on the S500ID comparison in the OP4 vs the 800 UFR. Probably get to that sometime today before the game.
Been playing with my new DMM and found something interesting re: my 2000ME/X III. Resistance: 480-RC, 493-LC; inductance: 340-RC, 337-LC.
I've always liked this cart but wasn't really blown away with it. Had it mounted on my Dual 1229. So decided to go ultralow mass arm on Pio PL-9. Holyo sumolyo! Huge difference. Unbelievalble detail with particularly amazing bass. IIRC the stylus was one I picked on the auction site and was listed as genuine Empire (it's red metallic with Empire badge embossed thereon).
I need to do some more listening and want to try it on my SL1200 as well. I'll get on that after the OP4/800UFR comparison.
Been playing with my new DMM and found something interesting re: my 2000ME/X III. Resistance: 480-RC, 493-LC; inductance: 340-RC, 337-LC.
I've always liked this cart but wasn't really blown away with it. Had it mounted on my Dual 1229. So decided to go ultralow mass arm on Pio PL-9. Holyo sumolyo! Huge difference. Unbelievalble detail with particularly amazing bass. IIRC the stylus was one I picked on the auction site and was listed as genuine Empire (it's red metallic with Empire badge embossed thereon).
I need to do some more listening and want to try it on my SL1200 as well. I'll get on that after the OP4/800UFR comparison.
Doug G.
Lunatic Member
That reminds me of another little Empire eccentricity they may have pulled which I think I mentioned in some other thread.
My original 2000 E/III (from early 1976) has DCRs of about 500 ohms which translates to a lower inductance cartridge body
My later one (indicated by the later flip-down stylus guard) has DCRs of about 1030 ohms which translates to a higher (or medium) inductance body.
I can certainly tell the difference in output level with the same stylus in each. And, of course, that makes sense. The lower inductance cartridge would have a lower output.
Is one of mine a fluke or did Empire make a production change without changing the model number? They both have (or had, in the case of my original which lost its lettering sometime in the past from cleaning the body) 2000 E/III on the body so if it is a fluke, somebody grabbed a wrong body and stamped it with 2000 E/III.
I guess the only way to be sure is if others with early and/or late examples could measure theirs.
EDIT: Another difference between the early and later examples is that the early ones didn't have the color guide on the back for the wire connections. The indications were just embossed on the black plastic.
Doug
My original 2000 E/III (from early 1976) has DCRs of about 500 ohms which translates to a lower inductance cartridge body
My later one (indicated by the later flip-down stylus guard) has DCRs of about 1030 ohms which translates to a higher (or medium) inductance body.
I can certainly tell the difference in output level with the same stylus in each. And, of course, that makes sense. The lower inductance cartridge would have a lower output.
Is one of mine a fluke or did Empire make a production change without changing the model number? They both have (or had, in the case of my original which lost its lettering sometime in the past from cleaning the body) 2000 E/III on the body so if it is a fluke, somebody grabbed a wrong body and stamped it with 2000 E/III.
I guess the only way to be sure is if others with early and/or late examples could measure theirs.
EDIT: Another difference between the early and later examples is that the early ones didn't have the color guide on the back for the wire connections. The indications were just embossed on the black plastic.
Doug
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beej: no rush, enjoy The Game.
My guess is that both your 620X and 2000ME/X will measure the same, plus or minus 10%, which means they can use the styli meant for the great number of 350mH clones, plus they can use the styli meant for the 250mH bodies, which includes both the 4000D series of CD-4 carts and the 2000X stylus (the metallic red one with the "EMPIRE" letters in gold, aka the S917E). By coincidence, this parallels ADC's original (270mH) and Mk II (350mH) XLM/VLMs on their way to ever higher inductance.
Doug: I remember you mentioning this awhile back, and I have no clue except that if you look at the 2000E-family brochures, you'll see that once upon a time there were three 2000E/# styli, one green, one blue and one clear. The next brochure shows only two-- the blue one, the 2000E/II, has poofed. Try to find the 2000E/II anywhere online now and it's as if it never existed. Don't know what that means yet, but it just might have a bearing on your 2000E/III outlier. Maybe. [UPDATE: Nope, all the 2000E bodies are the same except when they're mislabeled 66 bodies. Likely happened when the 2000Es were brought on line to replace the 66 family.]
Do you have decent closeups of both flavors of 2000E/III?
My guess is that both your 620X and 2000ME/X will measure the same, plus or minus 10%, which means they can use the styli meant for the great number of 350mH clones, plus they can use the styli meant for the 250mH bodies, which includes both the 4000D series of CD-4 carts and the 2000X stylus (the metallic red one with the "EMPIRE" letters in gold, aka the S917E). By coincidence, this parallels ADC's original (270mH) and Mk II (350mH) XLM/VLMs on their way to ever higher inductance.
Doug: I remember you mentioning this awhile back, and I have no clue except that if you look at the 2000E-family brochures, you'll see that once upon a time there were three 2000E/# styli, one green, one blue and one clear. The next brochure shows only two-- the blue one, the 2000E/II, has poofed. Try to find the 2000E/II anywhere online now and it's as if it never existed. Don't know what that means yet, but it just might have a bearing on your 2000E/III outlier. Maybe. [UPDATE: Nope, all the 2000E bodies are the same except when they're mislabeled 66 bodies. Likely happened when the 2000Es were brought on line to replace the 66 family.]
Do you have decent closeups of both flavors of 2000E/III?
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Update:
Empire 680X that came on a recently acquired parts unit: DOA. No readings whatsoever despite light burnishing of the cart leads. Easy decision there.
Empire LTD200 just arrived on another parts unit. Readings are remarkably similar to UFR 800: Resistance: R-1496, L-1498; Inductance: R670/L681. It would appear that the LTD200 is 'better' (although not by a whole bunch) than the OP4.
Comparison OP4 - UFR800 - both with S500ID stylus. Quietest LP I own is 180 gram Adele 21. Blind comparison produced no discernible difference. Will try another LP or 2 and I'll also introduce the LTD200 into the discussion and see what we get.
More later.
Empire 680X that came on a recently acquired parts unit: DOA. No readings whatsoever despite light burnishing of the cart leads. Easy decision there.
Empire LTD200 just arrived on another parts unit. Readings are remarkably similar to UFR 800: Resistance: R-1496, L-1498; Inductance: R670/L681. It would appear that the LTD200 is 'better' (although not by a whole bunch) than the OP4.
Comparison OP4 - UFR800 - both with S500ID stylus. Quietest LP I own is 180 gram Adele 21. Blind comparison produced no discernible difference. Will try another LP or 2 and I'll also introduce the LTD200 into the discussion and see what we get.
More later.
KrisM
Lunatic Member
My E/III has the colour guide. I also have another one that looks exactly the same, and has the colour guide, but I don't know what it is. It still has Empire on it, but the rest of the lettering is worn off. I've never measured them, I just assumed they were the same. Laziness had probably has something to do with it, too.
I guess I should measure them someday.
I also have a REX 440D that looks similar, but is "silver" and has a sticker as a label instead of it being painted on. It doesn't have the colour guide. Came with a blue stylus(not opaque). I don't think I've ever used it.
I guess I should measure them someday.I also have a REX 440D that looks similar, but is "silver" and has a sticker as a label instead of it being painted on. It doesn't have the colour guide. Came with a blue stylus(not opaque). I don't think I've ever used it.
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Thanks for doing this. This was the expected result, because it assumes the simplest strategy on Empire's part: change the stylus and leave the body alone (compare, for example, Shure's Era IV M97 family). It's also the predicted result when you substitute the LTD 200. The UFR800 and OP4 use bodies that are electrically the same (~700mH).beej said:
The next step will be to get hold of a stylus like the S44E or S400TC/S480LT and compare it to the UFR stylus in the same body.
That's okay; I discovered some "blacktails" in my own collection. They measure the same as the others of their flavor. So yours is still a mystery. [UPDATE: Later, we found several instances of 66s labeled as 2000Es, which I consider a production slipup but which some consider evidence of a conspiracy.]Doug G. said:
This is the more affordable version of the 4000D CD-4 carts, but it's spec'd just like them (well, the 440D's diamond is bushed, not nude/diasa as I'd originally thought). Not too many styli have a 0.1 mil tracing radius, but this one does (at least, the earlier ones do-- Empire changed the spec to 0.2 mil later on, after CD-4 died). Be gentle with the stylus-- the diamond sometimes comes unglued-- but do put this one into your rotation. It's too good to stay idle.KrisM said:
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KrisM
Lunatic Member
Will do, if the stylus is OK. I seem to recall having tracking issues with the table it came on, but I think it was an issue with the arm. Can I put that stylus on one of the E/III bodies? I already have those two mounted on a headshell, but not the 440D. Do you know what VTF I should use?
Thanks
Oh, and I think this thread is approaching sticky worthiness.
Thanks
Oh, and I think this thread is approaching sticky worthiness.
You mean the 2000E/III? There's a kinda-big mismatch there, 250mH compared to 585mH on one of my IIIs and 650mH on the other. So you'd get the laid-back sound I described above, sort of like a 2000E on Vicodin. VTF for the S440D is .75 to 1.5g. I'd start it at 1.25g.
Doug G. has lots of CD-4 experience with the 440D and 4000Ds, and I don't recall him saying they had tracking problems. While we wait for commentary from him, check to make sure you still have a diamond on your 440D stylus.
Doug G. has lots of CD-4 experience with the 440D and 4000Ds, and I don't recall him saying they had tracking problems. While we wait for commentary from him, check to make sure you still have a diamond on your 440D stylus.
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To which I say:
Seriously, cart manufacturers should sell styli with your choice of bodies for bright, flat, mellow and wowmanthat'sseriouslyeffedup. We call that last one the Syd Barrett model.
You can sort of do this on your own with the Blob-style Empires because you can fit the styli into bodies with anything from 220mH up to nearly 700mH. They all fit and make undistorted sound, but the FR graphs would look something like one of dlaloum's tests showing the effects of different R loads.
Empire even made an M97xE-style "audiophile" model using the 440D stylus: the 5000LAC. It has just enough extra inductance to take the very top end down just a smidge.
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Whoops, double post. Wow, man, don't know how that happened. Must be all this Vicodin...
Long as I'm here, I should mention that there are Empire replacement styli out there which are genuine Empire, but as Richard Steinfeld explains in another forum, they're Empire after it had been bought out a few times. Legally Empire, but not really Empire. Empire had already got into the replacement-stylus business and after they were bought out [again] in the '80s, they cranked out some strange "genuine"-but-lousy styli. There's no way to defend yourself against getting one of these except to (1) look for a color dot on the cantilever and (2) deal with a reputable and upstanding dealer, and yes, I've dealt with this problem myself. Be careful, know what the stylus you're buying is supposed to look like (for example, a boron-damped cantilever looks tarnished or heat treated, not merely dull and certainly not shiny); ask around. Ask here.
Long as I'm here, I should mention that there are Empire replacement styli out there which are genuine Empire, but as Richard Steinfeld explains in another forum, they're Empire after it had been bought out a few times. Legally Empire, but not really Empire. Empire had already got into the replacement-stylus business and after they were bought out [again] in the '80s, they cranked out some strange "genuine"-but-lousy styli. There's no way to defend yourself against getting one of these except to (1) look for a color dot on the cantilever and (2) deal with a reputable and upstanding dealer, and yes, I've dealt with this problem myself. Be careful, know what the stylus you're buying is supposed to look like (for example, a boron-damped cantilever looks tarnished or heat treated, not merely dull and certainly not shiny); ask around. Ask here.
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But which III body did you use?
By the way, never let anything you read here discourage anyone from trying a particular stylus in a particular body. If it fits, it might just work well enough to occupy a niche in your cartridge/stylus toolbox.
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By the way, never let anything you read here discourage anyone from trying a particular stylus in a particular body. If it fits, it might just work well enough to occupy a niche in your cartridge/stylus toolbox.
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