anyone else running vintage Empire carts?

[Mmaxed]

Thanks guys. Some more listening has told me the EDR.9 is indeed a good sounding cart. At first I thought the highs may be rolled of but not the case. They are there but so smooth they seemed lacking at first. Mids are more detailed that my Grado or Shure.

 

[wualta]

There are other considerations, but one index of quality and attention to details that matter is the effective tip mass of the stylus/cantilever system, and in this case it's 0.3mg, low for the time (~1979) and about the same as a Shure V15 Type IV. It also happens to be near the lowest published figures I've seen for any other Empire styli.. which happen to be 0.2mg for the 2000Z elliptical and 0.18mg for the later "GT" models. Another index is the damping ability (not too much, not too little) of the suspension.

 

[mikey99]

As mentioned in the forum awhile back a seller on ebay had the 237-DEM stylus....and the consensus was this
is a genuine Empire stylus.

I noticed this seller has more of these available and also the 237-DET, but it's not clear if these are the genuine Empire stylus.
For one thing the picture doesn't show the fold down stylus guard.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TURNTABLE-NEEDLE-EMPIRE-1000E-2000E-2000EI-2000EII-2000EIII-237-DET-237-DEC-/130836269306?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item1e767308fa

 

[Doug G.]

Actually, that is the style without the flip down guard. That was the style Empire used when the 2000 series was first released and they later switched to the flip down guard style.

The non flip down style had a gold, metal guard that snapped onto the stylus carrier (the clear part)

The cantilever on that one almost looks Empireish but I have never seen a genuine Empire stylus with a black stripe on the cantilever and so I will say that is an aftermarket stylus.

Doug

 

[GEKone]

Jico

 

[wualta]

Yupco. The color dot is the giveaway. The shiny aluminum canti is, too. I just received an S500ID near-TOTL stylus from a very generous fellow AKer, and it's instructive to look at the metal of the cantilever. Not only is it daringly slim, it's also dark, as if it had been through a heat-treat or hard-anodizing process [but see Doug G's simpler explanation]. No shine anywhere on it. It doesn't look aftermarket, and if indeed the big makers hard-anodized and heat-treated their cantilevers as I suspect they did, it'd be easy to understand why the aftermarket might want nothing to do with such processes-- their styli would be priced out of the market.
.

 

[Sam Cogley]

The fact that the ad copy calls it out as a JICO is pretty indicative, too.

I have a red-handle generic on my 2000 with that same dot. No wonder it sounds good. Wish I could find the stupid flip-down guard that fell off...

 

[Doug G.]

I believe there are or were other vendors that used dots on the cantilevers too. Not just Jico.

Walt, the S500ID stylus has a boron vapor over aluminum cantilever. That's why it is the dark color it is.

Doug

 

[jimreeves]

Yupco. The color dot is the giveaway. The shiny aluminum canti is, too.

That probably explains why the 239-DEX stylus (with the shiny cant and dot)I got from LPgear was so much cheaper than the same from TTneedles, although neither place does a good job of describing what you're gonna get before purchase. The flip down plastic guard has Empire molded into it though. :scratch2:

Sam, if you need the all-plastic flip down guard I can mail one to you, it's metallic red. :yes:

 

[beej]

Apologies for the pic quality (took 'em with my phone). While sorting out my cart inventory (egad, way too many!) I ran across this white Empire stylus. It may not be legible but the the embossing on the stylus guard does say Empire. Embossing was always just white as I recall. Fits both my 2000e MEX III and my 2300 III Improved. I've had it for 3 or 4 years. Any thoughts on which particular stylus this is.

 

[baco99]

I was running a 66EX with standard replacement needle (red with the "E" emblem on it) for a little while and traded it for a 999XEX. Uses the same needle, so I am waiting for it to come in. Also have a 550LTD that I am waiting to evaluate.

I liked the sound of the 66EX when I had it. Very smooth. Good low end and impeccable tracking on bad albums. Easier to set up than the AT120E in terms of balancing the weight and tracking, etc.

Excited to hear the 999XEX, not much info on this model.

 

[mikey99]

I ordered a 237-DEM from http://www.thevoiceofmusic.com
..... Its the genuine NOS Empire stylus, red color, even has the
flip down guard with Empire I printed on it.

This is for my sons 2000E cartridge, but I'm considering ordering
another for my 2000EIII. The original stylus on the 2000EIII
is a .2x.7. The 237-DEM is a .3x.7 but I think this is probably
the best option available now.

 

[wualta]

I believe there are or were other vendors that used dots on the cantilevers too. Not just Jico.

I do believe you're correct. And the color coding, which supposedly indicates the diamond shape, appears to vary from maker to maker.

Walt, the S500ID stylus has a boron vapor over aluminum cantilever. That's why it is the dark color it is.

[slaps forehead] Of course! I was too excited to remember. My S77LAC doesn't have this, interestingly enough. Both cantis have the little internal inertial damper, but only the [later? earlier? US market?] Dynamic Interface series mentions the boron-vapor process. That explains the schmutz on the diamond, too. Sounds like Benz (who I believe had just purchased Empire around the time of the EDR.9) was trying different things.

Any thoughts on which particular stylus this is.

It looks like an S4000D/III, but it doesn't have the gold lettering on the flipper. EDIT: Plus it's the newer all-plastic style of flipper. The old style had cute little gold sheetmetal arms. If you can get a good closeup of the cantilever, we can make a better guess. If you have a microscope/magnifier, see if the stylus has multiple facets all around the tip. 0.1mil scanning radius, one of the smallest ever.

Excited to hear the 999XEX, not much info on this model.

If it uses the same stylus, chances are the two bodies are clones. Online vendors consider them equivalents, but the only way to know for sure is to measure them. Report back.

mikey99, you must have gotten Gary's last 237-DEM.

 

[wualta]

Exploded Diagram of the 2000/4000/&c Empire Body

Take a look at this nice big exploded diagram, then read the patent. Now you'll know what all those magnets are for. The "generating element" label should be pointing to the mu-metal sleeve with the tapered end that's slipped over the tail of the cantilever. That's the "moving magnetic cone" that first appeared in 1965 ads. No, it's not a fourth magnet.

 

[baco99]

For those who are interested in the construction of the era of Empire carts that came just before the EDR.9, the ones with shiny metal bodies that mounted to a clip, take a look at this nice big exploded diagram. The callouts are in German, but most of it will become klar with a little study. Now you'll know what all those magnets are for.

Danke!!

 

[wualta]

Danke!!

Bitte!
[yes, I dropped in an English-language diagram later]

Now, a suggestion for anyone interested in trying something different from amongst the shiny-metal-blobs-on-clips era of Empires:

Is anyone interested in the 2000Z/T, the ones with the lowest effective tip mass of any Empire cart I've ever heard of? I know it's an oddball, but there are plenty of clone bodies out there, and the NOS stylus is ridiculously affordable by current standards (Gary has them for $26 shipped).

Body and stylus are a pair-- you can't fit anything to the body but the correct stylus, and the stylus would simply fall out of the wrong body. The EXL 30 is one common Z clone.

 

[mikey99]

.....
mikey99, you must have gotten Gary's last 237-DEM.
.

Hmm, oh well, I might have to try one of those Jico stylus after all

$15 shipped seems like a great price.....

 

[seminole54]

I think I may have. I ordered one about two weeks ago.

 

[GEKone]

Could someone verify if this RM 80 has the proper inductance for my S600LAC, S75LAC & S1000GT styli.

 

[wualta]

Wow. I don't know it. Didn't even know the RM (Reduced Mass) series went that high. Have you got an ohmmeter?

Actually, you're covered, sort of, either way: if it's low inductance, it'll handle the LACs. If it's high inductance, it'll do the 1000GT. Try 'em all and see which sounds like what. What I've been trying to avoid for fellow AKers is the shock and disappointment I felt when I ran straight into an expensive stylus-cart mismatch, plus I want to avoid the subsequent unfair damning of Empire carts as either too "thin and bright" or too "dull and lifeless". There's no sin in preferring a "wrong" combination, though.
.