• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

anyone else running vintage Empire carts?

Walt, I have a 2000Z. I got a genuine Empire stylus for it from a guy in Gay Paree for 35 bucks a few years ago. Same difference between a genuine and an aftermarket with that. It sounds much, much better with the genuine stylus in it.

I guess I don't see where Gary has a genuine stylus for it for $26.00.

Doug
 
Doug

If he's talking about the one with the mini shank it is the 239-DET. I've got one I ordered by mistake and since it was my fault not Gary's I just stuck it in the spare stylus box and let it go

Jack
 
OK, I see that's the 2000T version. I was looking for the 237-DEZ which was the 2000Z version (metallic gold).

Anyway, that is a very good deal for that genuine Empire stylus.

Doug
 
I've studied the specs and studied the styli and so far I can't tell the difference twixt the T and the Z. I suspect the Z styli are merely hand-selected Ts-- the channel separation specs at ~3dB better on the Z, and it tracks 38cm/sec at 0.9g while the T needs 1.0g. Not a lot of difference. Bodies are the same inductance, etc.

I've tried wading my way through the German test report of two samples each of Z and T that were linked for us awhile back and it appears Empire was having some QC problems with that stylus (borne out in the report), but with that in mind, the results graph out pretty much the same. So I'm "working-hypothesizing" that they'll virtually, in-real-life, perform the same. Finding a T is one way to cheapskate it up a bit. Yes, Gary's current deal on the 239-DET is unbeatable at the retail/auction level.
 
Last edited:
Obviously the 2000Z/T, but also the EXL 30 (I have one, originally by mistake); those are the only ones I know from personal experience. I have a Z stylus but only T bodies. I've seen a 2204 ZH on eBay (for way too much $).

I think for the rest we're going to have to fall back on data collected by fellow AKers and the more thorough online vendors, like TTN. There are a lot of model numbers that start with 2, but of course that means nothing. Without checking a chart, you might easily buy one thinking it's a clone of the 2000E/III or something.

You'll want to look at the listings for 237-DEZ and 239-DET; TTN adds the word 'mini' to indicate the small-shank models within these families, so it's 239mini-DET and 237mini-DEZ at TTN, but no other vendors use this. How these two near-twin styli got put in different Pfanstiehl categories I'll never know.

EDIT: To challenge the operating/provisional hypothesis and satisfy myself that the styli are if not identical then virtually the same, I played the T and Z back to back on Mark Isham's "Mr. Moto's Penguin" in the EXL 30 body, which specifies the S915E = 239-DET stylus. Beautifully similar sound from both. TTN says the silver S915E has a diasa-type nude mount. So does the blue S2000T stylus, as it turns out.
 
Last edited:
seminole54 said:
wualta

What Empire carts will take the mini-shaft stylus as I already have a new NOS one in the spare stylus box.

Jack
Click to expand...

All these should fit: 2000T 2001MKV 2001T 2005/V 2008 200S 204TE/X 2204/ZH 3000A 3000E/Z 3000PPC 3100TE 4004ZE/X 6000V/IMP 600T EXL30 QX5000/V SERIESV11 "SERIES VII" XL15-51E XL1551E
 
Yeah, the specs for the 2000Z and 2000T cartridges are very close and, so, it's not surprising they would sound virtually identical. The 2000Z actually came first and I wonder if the quality control issues Walt mentioned had something to do with releasing the 2000T, allowing Empire to use more styli rather than rejecting them for the 2000Z. The 2000Z stylus is nude, though.

EDIT: Looking at it again, it looks like it may be mounted to another stone first - there is a color change right under the cantilever and so it may also be diasa.

Just speculation.

BTW, I was looking at my PDF of the original Empire instruction sheet for the 2000Z with specifications and I noticed the stated ETM as .2mg instead of .3mg which is what I have been assuming for a long time. That's low for those days.

Doug
 
Last edited:
You may have noticed that there are actually four styli for these tiny-shanked bodies that are, or appear to be, virtually interchangeable and which I've come to think of as the same for so long that I forgot to mention that the S915E is really a "separate" stylus-- it's metallic silver. So we have silver, gold, clear yellow/amber --"S915E (yellow)"-- and metallic blue. Probably the Z styli got the most tolerance scrutiny in the QC process. I'm pretty sure the S915E came later (there's a whole series of S9## styli for some of the later carts, like the EXLs and others), so possibly-- possibly-- the bugs had been ironed out by then. Gary stocks the S915E, and it's also currently available on eBay for a reasonable amount ($47.30). Getting the T is more difficult, and even getting a Z body is a PITA.

All I'm saying is, if Empire ever built a stylus+cart for which they claimed a lower ETM, I haven't heard of it [I have now-- the 800 UFR 'Chunky' and the post-'Chunky' GT (aka Golden Touch) series, but the difference is small] and yes, 0.2mg (assuming any mfr's claims are even close to real-world, which is a big assumption, I know) is close to state of the art. Only a very few carts got under that [claimed] figure, and most used exotic materials to do it. So if one of the trio of styli should drop onto your work table, even by an accidental order on your part, you should get one of the special bodies. Not all of these have been confirmed, so shop carefully:
250 HF, 2000EV, 2000 PE (cyan lettering), 2000 S, 2000 Z, 2000 T, 2001 MKV, 2001 T, 2005/V, 2008, 204 TE/X, 2204/ZH, 3000A/V, 3000E/Z, 3000PPC, 3000TE/X (cyan lettering), 3000 ZE (cyan lettering), 3100 TE, 3500 TE, 4004 ZE/X, 5000 MkV, 6000 V, 600T, 700C VII, 9000 T, EXL30, QX5000/V, SERIES VII, XL1551E
 
Last edited:
I bought a cheap turntable with an Empire 500 on that auction site once. The seller left the effin' platter on when he shipped it, and the platter slammed around inside the dust cover in transit and smashed the Empire.
 
wualta said:
[whispers:] The coil resistance (or inductance if you have such a meter) of the 800 UFR body. Thank you.

Oh, and good news-- WhiskeyRebel found the answer to his level-drop question: a bad connection in his tonearm.
.
Click to expand...

OK, so my brand spanking new DMM is on hand, owners manual read and measurements taken on both OP4 and 800 UFR. Please read in 5 columns: Cart, resist right ch, left ch, induc right ch, left ch:

OP4 1503,1525, 714, 691
800 UFR 1510, 1480, 681, 680

Thoughts, guys?
 
With my OP4, I get 1533 ohms right and 1543 ohms left (I don't have an inductance capable meter) so I would say you got good readings, at least as far as DCR.

Thanks.

I'll let Walt do the analyzing. :D

Doug
 
Empire 620x

Another parts unit, another Empire cart. This one's an Empire 620x which, from what little I can find, uses a conical stylus, perhaps with DJ intent. Any thoughts or info will be helpful.
 

Attachments

  • Empire 620x cart.jpg
    Empire 620x cart.jpg
    31.9 KB · Views: 61
Doug G. said:
With my OP4, I get 1533 ohms right and 1543 ohms left.
I'll let Walt do the analyzing. :D
Click to expand...
Beej also has an OP4 and his readings are in line with yours. The inescapable conclusion is that the UFR is a high-inductance body. This is in line with the tendency we've seen in the socalled apres-Chunkies like the 1080LT and 1000GT.

Now, whether it's the same internally as the OP4 is not yet apparent [UPDATE: It is now], because Empire has pulled the "Aha, we snuck laminated pole pieces into the 2000Z/T! Stop us before we laminate again!" trick before-- powersquint real hard and you'll see this mentioned in a tiny font in the Z/T specs-- "16 laminations in a 4-pole configuration".

So who knows what's inside the UFR [SPOILER: just normal 700mH Chunky guts, nothing special]. Since no other Chunky brochure I've seen mentions laminations, I'm going on the assumption that the OP4 doesn't have them. If beej does a test where he tries his OP4 stylus back to back in the OP4 and then in the UFR and hears a big difference in the high treble range, then we'll know.
 
Last edited:
wualta said:
Beej also has an OP4 and his readings are in line with yours. The inescapable conclusion is that the UFR is a high-inductance body. This is in line with the tendency we've seen in the socalled apres-Chunkies like the 1080LT and 1000GT.

Now, whether it's the same internally as the OP4 is not yet apparent, because Empire has pulled the "Aha, we snuck laminated pole pieces into the 2000Z/T! Stop us before we laminate again!" trick before-- powersquint real hard and you'll see this mentioned in a tiny font in the specs-- "16 laminations in a 4-pole configuration".

So who knows what's inside the UFR. Since no other Chunky brochure I've seen mentions laminations, I'm going on the assumption that the OP4 doesn't have them. If beej does a test where he tries his OP4 stylus back to back in the OP4 and then in the UFR and hears a big difference in the whole treble range, then we'll know.
Click to expand...

I'd like to know this as well, as I'm running an OP5 and have the original stylus and an aftermarket from turntableneedles.com
 
Only problem is I don't have the original OP4 stylus. I could try running the S500ID on both or snag a stylus that will fit from either my 2000 or 2300. Let me see what I can do.

Still interested in any thoughts on that 620X above, btw.
 
beej said:
Only problem is I don't have the original OP4 stylus. I could try running the S500ID on both or snag a stylus that will fit from either my 2000 or 2300. Let me see what I can do.

Still interested in any thoughts on that 620X above, btw.
Click to expand...

I could send you my S55E if you want. It should fit the OP4. :smoke:
 
The tangerine S55E is basically the same stylus as beej's purple S500ID, except for the boron-vapored cantilever. They were both "voiced" for a low-inductance (~350mH) body, so in the OP4 they should both sound a smidge rolled off on the tippy-top end-- which you may or may not notice, depending on your speakers, hearing acuity, mood, suggestibility, relative humidity, proximity to moon rocks, etc etc etc.

For the purposes of beej's test, this doesn't matter-- we only want to know if the UFR body contains some of that audiophile stuffing. If it doesn't, then you could buy a UFR stylus for your OP4 and enjoy the ride. If it does, the UFR becomes a unique body (like the 2000Z/T) which can only use its own dedicated stylus (if flat response is important to you).

beej, your 620x looks like a standard 350mH midline body that takes 239-D? styli. Measure it and let us know. You're not stuck using conicals, I know that.
 
MitsuMan said:
I could send you my S55E if you want. It should fit the OP4. :smoke:
Click to expand...

Hate to risk your stylus for a trial. And how much difference would it make between the S55E and the S500ID that I already have in terms of differentiating between the 800 UFR and the OP4?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom