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anyone else running vintage Empire carts?

GEKone: This is the working hypothesis so far:

The following is strictly limited to Empire's "metal blob on a clip-mount" style that arrived with the 1973 4000 quad series, and the "octagonal metal tube engulfed by a bulky plastic mount" that hit with the 1980 Dynamic Interface series, the ones I've nicknamed "Chunkies".

1 ) The 4000D series and 440D CD-4 quad carts start off down around 230mH; this value shows up in the later 2000X and its clones. Inductance creep goes up to ~270mH.

2 ) Then come the common slightly-higher-inductance models like my 8000XVE and my 1000AEXIII which start off as low as 270mH but can creep up to beyond 350mH. Electrically distinct, however slightly, from the 4000Ds, but for anything but the most critical uses you can consider them an overlap of the quad group and freely swap their styli. They all spring from a series introduced alongside the 4000D family: the 66 series.

3 ) Then come the 2000Es and their few clones, which are up around 580mH or so. Just because the model begins with a 2 doesn't make it a 2000E-family model; this is where the numbers can be misleading.

3.5 ?) Then there are the special 2000 models, the 2000Z and 2000T near-twins, originally spec'd at 675mH, but sneakily increased, along with some of their clone-descendants (eg the EXL 30) to nearly 800mH. In a way, these latter models are a separate line, since they have tiny mounting shanks not physically interchangeable with the others, different magnetic internals, and the stylus selection is very limited (four styli, all pretty much the same). They can't be considered part of the 2000E family in any way

So call it a three-tier system. Just don't be 'confazed' by the 2000Z/T.

There's also the rare, high-inductance 800mH Broadcast One, meant for... you guessed it.

As for the Chunkies, a rough rule of thumb is that early models with numbers of 50 or 500 and above have inductance around 350mH and take the like-numbered upperclass ellipticals and the line-contacts, while the 40/400 and below models are around 700mH and take the heavier-tracking ellipticals and the conicals. Unfortunately there are exceptions, like the LTD 550 and the 60 ES, because as time went on, Empire changed the rules and made all subsequent models 700mH, helping to insure that they'd form the vast majority of models you'll see.

But you'll never see a 100 LAC model, for example, and you won't get 600 LAC sound if you put a LAC stylus into one of the 700mH bodies [But see later posts that discuss the 1080LT and the socalled Golden Touch styli]. What happens if you do? The tippy-top end will start to roll off starting at around 5kHz, with the midrange unaffected. Reactions to this vary all over the map, though, so experiment-- no harm will come.

It's a complex electromechanical juggling act that makes a stylus require a body with a certain inductance. When a manufacturer doesn't tell you it's using a two-tier inductance system and then abandons that system, also without notice, disappointment and confusion are bound to ensue. This is why we measure.

Does this answer some of your questions, or have I made it a scary mess?
 
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Gots me some pics!
Good ones, too. Lookin' mighty chunky. If my guess is correct and that stylus is a kind of frosted or smoky green, it's probably an S44E or some later equivalent, not a bad elliptical (2x7, no "tie"/safety wire) at all, and should, underline should, sound good.
 
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GEKone: This is the working hypothesis so far:

Our discussion is strictly limited to Empire's "metal blob on a clip-mount" style that arrived with the 4000 quad series, and the "metal tube engulfed by a bulky plastic mount" that hit with the Dynamic Interface series.

The 4000-series quad carts are down around 280 or 290mH. Then come the fairly common not-quads like my 8000XVE and my 1000AEXIII which are around 350mH-- so close you can consider them an extension of the quad group. Then come the 2000s and their many clones, which are around 580mH or so. Then there's the special 2000 models, the 2000Z and 2000T, which started out at 675mH, but some of whose descendants (eg the EXL 30) are up over 750mH. In a way, these latter models are like a separate brand, since they have tiny stylus shanks not physically interchangeable with the others, and the stylus selection is, as far as I can tell, very limited.

As for the Chunkies, a rough rule of thumb is that models with numbers of 50 or 500 or more have inductance around 350mH and take the like-numbered upper ellipticals and the line-contacts, while the 40/400 and below models are around 700mH and take the heavier-tracking ellipticals and the conicals. Unfortunately there are exceptions, like the 550LTD and the 60ES, so this ID method isn't infallible. But you'll never see a 100LAC model, for example, and you won't get 600LAC sound if you put the LAC stylus into one of the lesser bodies.

It's a complex electromechanical juggling act that makes a stylus require a body with a certain inductance.

Generally, with the Empire model line, the lighter, more delicate styli needed a low-inductance body, the 2000Z being the great exception.

Does this answer some of your questions, or have I made it a scary mess?

good information here, thanks.
 
Good ones, too. Lookin' mighty chunky. If my guess is correct and that stylus is a kind of frosted or smoky green, it's probably an S44E or some later equivalent, not a bad elliptical (2x7, no tie wire) at all, and should, underline should, sound good.

I gave that OP 4 a listen on the big system last night, for the first time in a while...

While it's still not my fave, it does sound pretty good. What it sounds like to me, is a slightly less detailed, less smooth version of the Shure M97xE. It is warm, with a recessed top end, and nice extended lows. The mids tend to sound a little hard, dense, and congested at times. That has always been my gripe about it. Surprisingly, it tracks almost as well as the M97xE, with very little surface noise, sibilance, or distortion.

Poking around online, it looks like there may be some aftermarket stylus upgrades. One of these days, if I ever I have a spare $120 lying around, (unlikely,) it would be cool to try a shibata in that Chunky...

http://www.turntableneedles.com/S500ID-Needle-241-Dshibata_p_3720.html
 
I use a NOS 1980 Ortofon 'M20FL Super' MM cart and couldn't be happier.

If the company in Germany would of had 2 of them...I would of bought them both.
 
wualta great info!!, one last question: I have a 600 LAC stylus. Which would be the best chunky to use (beside the 600 LAC)?


I have a 800 UFR body but the stylus has some kind of magnet in the part that goes into the cart.

The next highest numbered cart I have is a LTD 450.
 
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Wow, a 800 UFR. I'd love to play with one of those and find out wth Empire had in mind with that funky extra magnet. [UPDATE: Turns out, despite what some vendors say, there are no magnets anywhere in the 800 UFR's stylus.]

As for the 600 LAC, it's virtually the same stylus as my ivory white S77LAC, and it needs to be in a body with 350mH inductance (roughly 500 ohms DC resistance) for flat response in the top two octaves. As far as I can tell, all the 350mH bodies are the same and all the 700mH bodies are the same. So look for an ID 50 or an RM 50, or.... Let us know what body you dig up and we'll show you how to measure it to check its 'flavor'. [the 800 UFR used a 700mH body, so it's not a proper match for the 600 LAC stylus, which is just as well, since, except for the diamond shape, the 800 UFR's stylus is superior to the 600 LAC's and can use the most common 700mH bodies].
 
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The Empires I currently have mounted and in use (all with genuine Empire styli) are--
888TE
1000ZE/X
999XE/X
600LAC
LTD750 (but not the original stylus)

I agree with a previous poster that the 600LAC stylus should also sound great in the LTD750 body. It does work and it sounds ok but in my examples that stylus sounds best in the 600LAC body. Go figure? In the LTD750 I prefer using a red stylus from the 400TC in the same series. Alas I don't have the original LTD stylus to go with that cartridge...

My favorites of this group are the 1000ZE/X and 600LAC, but could live with any of them.
Jim
 
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I"m just gonna assume here that my '80's vintage 485LT P-mount in no way qualifies, whatsoever, for this thread. But I feel better now that I've gotten that out.
 
...I agree with a previous poster that the 600LAC stylus should also sound great in the LTD750 body. It does work and it sounds ok but in my examples that stylus sounds best in the 600LAC body. In the LTD750 I prefer using a red stylus from the 400TC in the same series.

DMJ, you've got much more Empire time logged than I have, and to date I've not been able to get my hands on an LTD 750 (for which I have only the extensive yet incomplete specs of the owner's manual ) or indeed on anything above the LTD 500 or RM 50. Assuming you have an OEM 600 LAC stylus, I suspect another failure of my rule-of-thumb. Based on the stylus reportedly sold with it (a dark green LAC), I've always assumed the LTD 750 to be a 350mH body. But maybe it isn't. Stranger things have happened-- by that rule, my LTD 550 "should" also be 350mH but isn't. [UPDATE: the LTD 750 is indeed a 350mH model.]

Any chance you have one of those cheap'n'dirty inductance meters? Or an ohmmeter?

Oh, and tell Marantz 2270 what it is about the old 1000ZE/X that charms you so. NOS styli are still affordable, about $45 shipped, but he should make his decision soon.

I"m just gonna assume here that my '80's vintage 485LT P-mount in no way qualifies, whatsoever, for this thread.
You bring up an interesting point. Your 485LT-- very qualified indeed-- and my Sonus PME .5LC were both made by the same Japanese OEM (possibly Nagaoka, though the body shows up as an Excel and Marantz as well). They can both take the same styli, though yours is moving-magnet and my Sonus is moving-iron. So is it a "true" Empire? Is mine a "real" Sonus, blessed by Peter Pritchard on its way out the loading dock door? Wellllll..... we won't worry about that.
 
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wualta, I checked all my chunkies they are:

OP 4
LTD 400
800 UFR
400 TC
A22 Me (silver)
300

I do have an ohm meter
 
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I gave that OP 4 a listen... It is warm, with a recessed top end, and nice extended lows. The mids tend to sound a little hard, dense, and congested at times. That has always been my gripe about it.
I was thinking further about this and was wondering about that recessed top end. I have the same stylus, got it NOS on a TC 40, and it sounds fine and tracks hot sibilants well in my 300Z body, which measures just under 700mH (I use my 300Z body because its channels match more closely than my TC 40's). I was comparing a bunch of cartridges, swapping out headshells, and it didn't stand out as being significantly different from the others.

As for the congestion/hardness, check the alignment, check the stylus under magnification, all that good stuff.

Empire typically specified a comically large range of VTFs. The S44E is spec'd at .75 to 2.0g. Testing always seemed to show the "real" minimum VTF of a typical cartridge to be about 0.85x the maximum figure-- which would be 1.75g for the S44E. But I find that 1.25g to 1.5g is sufficient for my S44E.

If you've been tracking less than that, crank it up. It's worth a try. Congestion could be a sign of incipient mistracking.

If none of that works, dunno. Maybe the stylus is just worn out.

Or maybe it's mounted sideways, like the ADC PSX-40 I got in the mail today... [UPDATE: It's supposed to be sideways! The Ti cantilever is so narrow a normal "tombstone" wouldn't fit, so they stuck it in the cantilever sideways, but the facets face straight ahead, as they should.]

GEKone-- A nice collection. If the Original Chunky Hypothesis holds [ah, but it didn't, not forever, though in GEKone's case it did], they'll all measure about 1500 ohms, give or take 10%. If you have any of the original owner's guide leaflets, transcribe some of the specs (or scan 'em), if you will. They probably won't mention inductance or even resistance, but they'll specify the name of the replacement stylus.
 
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Empire typically specified a comically large range of VTFs.
.

I believe the elliptical on my 66/X calls for 3/4 to 3 grams. That seems overly wide to me. I've got it I think at 1.5 right now, but I've been meaning to play with it and see if I can get some improvement.
 
I run an 880 occasionally on the Garrard A ll, sound ok for a 1960's cartridge.

Same here, 880p on a Thorens td-124

attachment.php


It is not the only conical that I run.
 
So, a TC40 would be considered a "chunky".
Has anybody done upgraded stylus on one of these? If so, is it worth it?

Thanks!
 
I was thinking further about this and was wondering about that recessed top end. I have the same stylus, got it NOS on a TC 40, and it sounds fine and tracks hot sibilants well in my 300Z body, which measures just under 700mH (I use the 300Z body because its channels are better balanced). I was comparing a bunch of cartridges, swapping out headshells, and it didn't stand out as being significantly different from the others.

As for the congestion/hardness, check the alignment, check the stylus under magnification, all that good stuff.

Empire typically specified a comically large range of VTFs. The S44E is spec'd at .75 to 2.0g. Testing always showed the "real" minimum VTF was about 0.85x the maximum figure-- about 1.75g for the S44E.

If you've been tracking less than that, crank it up. It's worth a try. Congestion could be a sign of incipient mistracking.

If none of that works, dunno. Maybe the stylus is just worn out.

Or maybe it's mounted sideways, like the one I got in the mail today...

Mounted sideways? D'Oh!

Fortunately, that's not the case with this one. A few years back when I first got it, I checked it under a magnifier, and it looked pretty good. It doesn't seem to have any audible telltale signs of a worn stylus, like IGD, distortion during loud passages, or sibilance. Actually, it sounds quite distortion free.

Looking closely at my pics, the cartridge does appear a bit skewed in the headshell. It has spent some time off the tonearm and could have been bumped out of place during handling. I should throw this cartridge on the Stevenson protractor again, just in case...

I did protractor align it when I originally mounted it to the Empire headshell, and previous to that, it was mounted in a Technics brand headshell, which I had also protractor aligned. As I recall, it sounded this way on both. It's always seemed to like to tracking above about 1.7g, it's currently set at 1.8g.

:scratch2:

I always figured that this is just how this particular cartridge is supposed to sound... But if it should not sound like this, I might be inclined to suspect the stylus suspension. It seems like quite a few of these old Empires are starting to fail. My OP 4 does seem to ride pretty low...
 
OP5 here running in a Pioneer PL-8 in my office system. I have the S55E OEM stylus and an aftermarket 242-DEX stylus from turntableneedles.com

Sounds pretty good in my office system. :yes:

image.php
 
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So, a TC40 would be considered a "chunky".
Has anybody done upgraded stylus on one of these? If so, is it worth it?
Thanks!
Yes, a TC40 is indeed a "Chunky". As for upgrading, there's only so far you can go before you run into the rolled-off-treble phenomenon caused by using a stylus that's too fancy for the cart; ie, one that has an electromechanically flatter response curve that doesn't need so much treble rolloff to be supplied by the coils in the body. For example, the orange-colored S55E stylus mentioned by MitsuMan was designed for a cartridge (originally, the ID 50) with only half the inductance of the TC 40.

I wasn't aware of any of this until I spent big bucks on a NOS LAC stylus for my "lowly" 300Z and the sound was stomach-droppingly dull, but "dull" means different things to different people, because of different speakers/headphones, among other things.

You can go sideways and try for something like a NOS S400TC stylus (Pfanstiehl # 241-DTC), but the availability and prices are not encouraging. The S44E's performance is about all you can expect unless you have good versatile tone controls and can compensate for the high-treble rolloff without messing up the midrange.

...It doesn't seem to have any audible telltale signs of a worn stylus, like IGD, distortion during loud passages, or sibilance.

...I might be inclined to suspect the stylus suspension. It seems like quite a few of these old Empires are starting to fail. My OP 4 does seem to ride pretty low...

I think you can rightfully consider congestion during loud passages a legitimate form of distortion, and, like you, I'm leaning toward suspension hardening and/or collapse. Further evidence to support this: I ran my S44E successfully at 1.5g because I didn't have my chart handy. KrisM himself originally scanned and posted this one, which can be handy when you want to know which stylus originally went with what body:
Empire Studio Series aka Euro line of Dynamic Interface cartridges-crop.jpg


Hardening can be partially reversed with rubber restorers, but some use solvents that can harm styrene, which is what the Chunky styli are made of. Outright collapse? I'm thinking that might be the end of that stylus. Consider a replacement that uses a tie-wire (a nickname-- it's really a safety wire, a suspension limiter-- see below) to help take the VTF force.

OP5 here running in a Pioneer PL-8 in my office system. I have the S55E OEM stylus and an aftermarket 242-DEX stylus from turntableneedles.com
You lucky devil. I'm still trying to get my hands on more 5/50/500-and-above bodies and have been zilched for at least a year. I wish Multiplex and KrisM could use the S55E stylus with its interesting little inertial damper. Assuming they could even find one. The aftermarket styli won't have that feature.

But like I said, the body-stylus mismatch problem is simply an EQ problem, not a linearity (ie, distortion) problem. If you have EQ sophisticated enough to counteract the FR error in the top two octaves (5kHz and up), you can freely pop and swap. Trouble is, you'll probably have to EQ by ear.

Here's a photo of an S22E showing the suspension "safety" wire. The cantilever is pointing directly at the camera and so might not be apparent at first glance. The black line is the wire, which comes into play if too much VTF is cranked in; it keeps the suspension from collapsing entirely. You'll see it mostly on the heavy-tracking styli.
Empire E 20 showing tie wire-E.jpg
 
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