anyone else running vintage Empire carts?
- Thread starter gadget73
- Start date
Here's the only other Chunky-chart I've been able to find. If any of you still have the owner's manuals for your OPs or RMs or LTDs or what have you, puh-leeze scan and post 'em. This is an ongoing investigative project.
The good news is we have specs for the earliest metal-blob Empires and for the series before that, the one headed by the 1000ZE/X, but, as with the Chunkies, we don't have brochures showing all the countless spinoffs and clones and their styli, so we have to extrapolate and cross our fingers.
The good news is we have specs for the earliest metal-blob Empires and for the series before that, the one headed by the 1000ZE/X, but, as with the Chunkies, we don't have brochures showing all the countless spinoffs and clones and their styli, so we have to extrapolate and cross our fingers.
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Here's the only other Chunky-chart I've been able to find. If any of you still have the owner's manuals for your OPs or RMs or LTDs or what have you, puh-leeze scan and post 'em. This is an ongoing investigative project.
The good news is we have specs for the earliest metal-blob Empires and for the series before that, the one headed by the 1000ZE/X, but, as with the Chunkies, we don't have brochures showing all the countless spinoffs and clones and their styli, so we have to extrapolate and cross our fingers.
More good info. As I mentioned earlier my 'chunky' 100s is sounding very good using a 200s JICO stylus. The body is ~700mH/1500 ohms DCR. What is the best stylus I can get for this?
I understand that higher-end Empires are lower inductance (more like ~350 mH), so those styli are not suitable for the 100s.
So really the question is what is the highest model chunky cart with that inductance?
Is the recommended capacitance a hint??
Have a look at this earlier answer to your question from our own dean man jim: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/92/923052.html
You can see what you're up against. Just in case you didn't spot it, DMJ puts in a good word for the Pfanstiehl-index 239-PDE stylus; in Empire-speak that's the 2x7 S912E (purple) or the 2x7 S910E (white).
Hint: if you don't mind the risk of buying used, you can look at online auction sites for cartridges from that huge list... oh, say, an 8000/XVE... and see if the stylus still looks good. Pick it up cheap to soften the risk and have your ultrasonic jewelry cleaner standing by.
EDIT: MitsuMan's scan of the OP series specs went poof, so here, from the future, is a more complete version:
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For coming up with and sharing one of the fundamental and thus most-useful charts (as you can see, the OP "Optimum Performance" series cites the same styli), you deserve a six-pack.I think I deserve a beer!
Thanks very much for that. It goes a long way to confirming my gut feeling that the Studio Series is an early one and that many other series simply radiate out from it, all using the same styli.
It could be that all Chunky series simply radiate out from these two charts. We should be so lucky.
Yes, it is. That's one of the things that tipped me off early on. Notice the funny ambiguity when you get to the 4/40/400 series. Yet my NOS TC 40 body measures the same as your 100S. So I'm going to say S44E (Pfanstiehl index 242-DET) or S400TC (241-DTC) IF we're talking increasingly-rare NOS. And of course don't forget the EQ option.
Now, if we're talking aftermarket, things change. I'm glad to hear JICO's stylus sounds good. If a reputable online someone sells a line-contact stylus for a reasonable amount, say $79.95 plus $8 shipping, I'd consider it, keeping in mind that it won't have all the wonderful little fiddly bits of tech in it that the original had, and might not sound the same or track the same.
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dean man jim
Active Member
Hi Waulta, I don't have one of those meters but I have a theory that's nothing but supposition...previously I had a 900GT that apparently had the same cantilever and stylus as the 600LAC (boron-vapored cantilever, LAC stylus) and being interchangable with the 'chunky' body 600LAC I assumed it would also sound the same. Nope it was great in the 900GT but not great in the 600LAC. So my supposition based the three carts is that perhaps the tie wires, damping materials, and/or magnets are slightly different. The 900GT unfortunately suffered a premature death during an experiment but I still have the virtually-NOS stylus and am on the lookout for a replacement body.
I have a small stash of styli for my 1000ZE/X but would love another one or two if I can find them. If you'd be able to share the source of the styli you mentioned I'd be most grateful :yes:
Marantz2270 if you're still afoot in the thread I'll just say that I think of the 1000ZE/X as the anti-Audio Technica cartridge in some ways. If a person loves the AT line (new or old), I think that s/he likely won't like the ZE/X. Where the ZE/X really shines for me is in recorded music of unamplified acoustic instruments (orchestral music, chamber music, some jazz, some opera). It imparts (or reveals) a tactile sense that I just don't get from other cartridges. On the other hand it isn't as transparent as cartridges such as the Stanton 881S or the Acutex LPM 315 STR, or Astatic MF200. So for some folks its strengths may have no attraction but since I mostly listen to unamplified acoustic music....
So Marantz2270 if you decide to not seek a stylus for your 1000ZE/X body please PM me through the forum. I'd be very interested in acquiring another body (my spare body recently went bye-bye to the cartridge cemetary :tears
.Jim
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Marantz 2270
Active Member
So why should I put a stylus on my 1000ze/x?
Marantz 2270
Active Member
Thanks! Considering....Hi Waulta, I don't have one of those meters but I have a theory that's nothing but supposition...previously I had a 900GT that apparently had the same cantilever and stylus as the 600LAC (boron-vapored cantilever, LAC stylus) and being interchangable with the 'chunky' body 600LAC I assumed it would also sound the same. Nope it was great in the 900GT but not great in the 600LAC. So my supposition based the three carts is that perhaps the tie wires, damping materials, and/or magnets are slightly different. The 900GT unfortunately suffered a premature death during an experiment but I still have the virtually-NOS stylus and am on the lookout for a replacement body.
I have a small stash of styli for my 1000ZE/X but would love another one or two if I can find them. If you'd be able to share the source of the styli you mentioned I'd be most grateful :yes:
Marantz2270 if you're still afoot in the thread I'll just say that I think of the 1000ZE/X as the anti-Audio Technica cartridge in some ways. If a person loves the AT line (new or old), s/he likely won't like the ZE/X. Where the ZE/X really shines for me is in recorded music of unamplified acoustic instruments (orchestral music, chamber music, some jazz, some opera). It imparts a tactile sense that I just don't get from other cartridges. On the other hand it isn't as transparent as cartridges such as the Stanton 881S or the Acutex LPM 315 STR. So for some folks its strengths may have no attraction but since I mostly listen to unamplified acoustic music....
So Marantz2270 if you decide to not seek a stylus for your 1000ZE/X body please PM me through the forum. I'd be very interested in acquiring another body (my spare body recently went bye-bye to the cartridge cemetary :tears
Jim
Multiplex
Appease my earhole.
Bummer. That's what I was afraid of. I have heard of some kind of silicon lubricant that can be used for restoring a hardened suspension. I wonder what to use, and if it would hurt the styrene?
Edit... Worst case scenario... Stylus not salvageable? Cut off the cantilever and graft it to something else! Gradopire, Empio Technica, Shire M0P 4, maybe? Anyone?
...Gotta love Frankencarts! Muahahaha!
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dean man jim said:
At the moment, I only have limited info on the unChunkies (well, they came later, so they're AfterChunkies or Après-Chunkies, though they use Chunky styli) 1000/900 GT. What exactly was the "great/not-great" difference you heard when you swapped the respective styli?
SPOILER ALERT/HINT: inductance difference
I wish you still had that 900 GT body so we could slap an ohmmeter on it. [UPDATE: 700mH]
I'll PM you with a source I found for 1000ZE/X styli.
"The anti-Audio-Technica" must mean the top end doesn't have a bulge in it, right? Or does it mean further mellowing beyond flat response (ie, a tilt-down or shelf-down of the curve)?
If that's the case, I can get away with using a 999TE/X body with my 1000ZE/X stylus. The slight inductance difference will unmellow the top end a bit and it will sound just spiffing. Then Marantz2270 can deed you his 1000ZE/X body and everyone will be happeh.
Multiplex, I don't think the silicone-oil products have solvents, just propellants, so if you have nothing to lose, give it a try. I'll understand if you'd rather not!
If you like cantilever-Frankensteining, you'll love ADC cartridges. Yank 'em out, pop 'em in.
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Multiplex
Appease my earhole.
I'll consider trying a silicone product. Why not?
And BTW... I love ADC cartridges anyway! In fact, I have the perfect potential recipient for a cantilever graft. It's an ADC made-for-Rat Shack RK50E stylus that the stylus... actually fell out of! Amazingly, I found the microscopic stylus again. I tried for quite a while to get it glued back in straight before I finally lost the stylus for good and mangled the cantilever. You win some, you lose some.
It wasn't a good day...
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dean man jim
Active Member
Yes, I wish I still had the 900GT body, too. The difference with using the 900GT stylus in the 600LAC body could be partially explained by the web site you shared (and thanks for that!). If it is correct information, the 900GT stylus was a common elliptical (which is contrary to what I thought when buying it) and would explain what I remember to be a more veiled and sluggish sound when in the 600LAC body.
AT vs the 1000ZE/X... I think that if a person really liked an AT 140 variant or even 150 as being extended but not bright in their system, in the same system I think that s/he would find the 1000ZE/X to sound rolled off in the highs.
Most definitely consider trying your ZE/X stylus in your 999 body, it might work great or it might be awful but there's only one way to find out!
After hearing your impressions and studying the specs, I have the distinct impression Empire had moved on a little from first-gen Chunky tech when it came up with the 1000 and 900 GT models.
[UPDATE: As mentioned earlier, they had-- they made all the later Chunkies 700mH, even the TOTL Après-Chunkies, eg the 1000 GT and 1080 LT, plus they gave them very low ETM]
The specs don't mention any extension beyond 20kHz, which hints at an increase in inductance, yet output had dropped compared to the 600 LAC. Compliance was up, VTF was down. But the specs are maddeningly incomplete, so we'll have to speculate until one drops into our laps. That's all too often the case with old styli and bodies from long-ago companies.
Note, however, that the scanning radius of the 2x7 elliptical is slightly narrower than the LAC's, so if anything, you should have heard more HF detail from the 900 GT's stylus. Dunno.
Your comments about A-T's house sound vs Empire's as embodied in the ZE/X confirms me in my intuition that the "wrong" body for the ZE/X stylus will sound right. I'll lash it up in the next few days to hear what this fabled cart had to offer its well-heeled buyers circa 1971.
[UPDATE: As mentioned earlier, they had-- they made all the later Chunkies 700mH, even the TOTL Après-Chunkies, eg the 1000 GT and 1080 LT, plus they gave them very low ETM]
The specs don't mention any extension beyond 20kHz, which hints at an increase in inductance, yet output had dropped compared to the 600 LAC. Compliance was up, VTF was down. But the specs are maddeningly incomplete, so we'll have to speculate until one drops into our laps. That's all too often the case with old styli and bodies from long-ago companies.
Note, however, that the scanning radius of the 2x7 elliptical is slightly narrower than the LAC's, so if anything, you should have heard more HF detail from the 900 GT's stylus. Dunno.
Your comments about A-T's house sound vs Empire's as embodied in the ZE/X confirms me in my intuition that the "wrong" body for the ZE/X stylus will sound right. I'll lash it up in the next few days to hear what this fabled cart had to offer its well-heeled buyers circa 1971.
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scottyh777
Super Member
Always love a Empire Cartridge thread.here is what I have in stock
EDR-9
600 LAC
1000 ZE/X
PRO-1 (just got a new jico for this.Uses the same stylus as 4000 cart)
EDR-9
600 LAC
1000 ZE/X
PRO-1 (just got a new jico for this.Uses the same stylus as 4000 cart)
scottyh777
Super Member
Shrink,
I just purchased a new stylus from JICO for my 1000 ZE/X and it really sounds superb.Highly reccomend.$89 and well worth it.
http://stylus.export-japan.com/product_info.php?cPath=6&products_id=312
Kind of cool there are so many using these things. All the time I hear about Stanton, Shure, Audio-Technica and to some lesser extent Ortofon and ADC but not much gets said about Empire. I honestly didn't know they made so many different models. My 66/X is the first I've ever had.