anyone else running vintage Empire carts?

[dean man jim]

Kind of cool there are so many using these things. All the time I hear about Stanton, Shure, Audio-Technica and to some lesser extent Ortofon and ADC but not much gets said about Empire. I honestly didn't know they made so many different models. My 66/X is the first I've ever had.

Yes, the number of models is dizzying! But the 6 or so generations that I have all have a fundamental design element in common--namely a compact body held in place by a bracket in order to mount to a headshell.

Looking at the LTD 750 one can see that there is a black body inside of a relatively bulky clear outside--and the bulky outside is basically a mounting bracket. A compact body with a separate strap or other mounting mechanism was also used in the ca 1968 888TE, the early 70s 1000ZE/X, the late seventies 999XE/X, (of course the 80s 600LAC and LTF750) and the early 90s-to-the-end 900GT (shown below looking a little like a clearaudio inspired franken-cart).

About the pictured LTD 750--I removed it from its magnesium headshell last weekend to install in a Thorens headshell instead, and noticed that the adhesive points holding the body to the shell had failed. So I took a few images today 'cause I've been too lazy to glue it back together (the same thing happened a couple of months ago with my 600LAC, interestingly enough. I used JB Weld for the 600LAC but I'm wondering if I should use a clear plastic adhesive with this one...any suggestions?).

 

[Multiplex]

dean man jim... Which is model of cartridge is second from the right in your photos? That is a gold body, right?

 

[dean man jim]

dean man jim... Which is model of cartridge is second from the right in your photos? That is a gold body, right?

Yes, it's a gold body 999XE/X. It takes the same stylus style as some of the 2000/4000/66 models but I haven't yet got around to using anything beyond the elliptical one pictured.

 

[Multiplex]

Thank you.

Right now I have an Empire 598 II in my grubby little fingers, that belongs to a friend of mine. I am cleaning it up and lubricating it for him. It currently has an Empire 2004 cartridge body (silver) with that same stylus. I'm not sure if that is the correct stylus, number one, and number two, it seems as though this stylus is waaaaaay too compliant for the Troubidor's heavy tonearm. It dances and skips on warps pretty easily.

Out of curiosity, would you happen to know if this is normally a fairly high compliance cartridge, or if maybe the suspension is just trashed in this one?

Either way, I am going to recommend either replacing the stylus or the cartridge with one that gets along better with that tonearm. I'm afraid it might be tough to find a less compliant cartridge in the MM realm that sounds this good.

 

[timofred]

I have an Empire 3000 cart, but no stylus.
Can't find info on what should go on it.

 

[GEKone]

Multiplex :

That stylus looks like an S912E, which is fairly highly compliant @ 18 x 10`6 cm/dyne,
tracking @ 3/4 - 1 1/2 .

 

[Multiplex]

Thank you, GEKone. Definitely not a good match, and probably worn out at that. It seems to want to track at 1.7g.

Looking at replacement styli options is pretty frustrating. Most sites don't publish compliance specs or tracking force, and some don't even specify what kind of elliptical stylus the replacements have.

 

[wualta]

Compliance is roughly proportional to tracking force specs. The 3000 can use any stylus in the Pfanstiehl 239 group (except the -DET). The 2004 came with the S912E, as the Empire spec sheet for the 2004 shows. The S910E will also work.

AKer PureQuill measured his 2004 body for us, and his example happened to match the 2000E series's measurements; therefore, his 2004 is an example of a factory production error and should use a 2000E stylus from the 237 group.

Tim, you didn't say what kind of arm you have, so I'll say S910E, the white 239-PDE.

About the pictured LTD 750--I noticed that the adhesive points holding the body to the shell had failed (the same thing happened a couple of months ago with my 600LAC, interestingly enough. I used JB Weld for the 600LAC but I'm wondering if I should use a clear plastic adhesive with this one...any suggestions?).

This bit of your post gave me an idea, DMJ. I too have had mounting caps let go, and not just on Empires. Once the fancy plastic foliage comes off, it becomes more obvious that there really aren't a thousand models, only two or three.

I wouldn't use a superstrong glue to put the caps back on unless I was certain I'd never want to play with something like the following scenario:

Can't find a LAC for your 500 ID, but you have one of the old quad styli (238-DEQ, 239-DQ)? It's a tight fit, but they'll work. Or, how about one of the better 2000-series styli for your 100 S? In both cases, unless you have the early version of the stylus without the flip-down guard, you'll need to buzz off a little from the front edges of the mounting cap, which is much easier when it's off the body.

So don't glue that cap on too tight, because who knows what crazy things we might discover in the future. Clear silicone, maybe?

 

[KrisM]

For coming up with and sharing one of the fundamental and thus most-useful charts (as you can see, the OP "Optimum Performance" series cites the same styli), you deserve a six-pack.

Glad to help. I was just trying post a little info, and maybe get a little back. Nice that it is appreciated.:yes:
I should take a look at that brochure and see if there is any other useful info. I don't think so, but I'll check.

 

[dean man jim]

I wouldn't use a superstrong glue to put the caps back on unless I was certain I'd never want to play with something like this scenario:

Can't find a LAC for your 500ID, but you have one of the old quad styli (238-DEQ, 239-DQ)? It's a tight fit, but they'll work. Or, how about one of the better 2000-series styli for your 100 S? You'll need to buzz off a little from the front edges of the mounting cap, which is much easier when it's off the body.

So don't glue that cap on too tight, because who knows what crazy things we might discover in the future. Clear silicone, maybe?

Great idea about using a reversible adhesive, thanks! Speaking of the 500ID, that seller on Ebay-France seems to still have a stash of them and I almost pulled the trigger the other day before remembering that I already have more than I'll ever need LOL.

Along these lines I had forgotten about my Empire 100S stylus which is a beasty and sounds great on my idler. I think I'll fire that one up soon...thanks for the reminder

 

[wualta]

KrisM: I've since acquired a Studio Series cartridge and booklet and your scan shows everything significant.

But let me again urge anyone who has a booklet for any Empire cartridge to scan it or photograph it and post it here on AK. Every clue helps every person "getting into vinyl" who buys a used turntable and finds a mysterious cartridge under the lid.

Particularly needed: specs on the mysterious LTD series-- particularly the 450 and 550-- which seems to follow rules of its own. I have specs for the 200, 400, 500 and 750 --which, since its basic electrical specs are the same as the low-inductance LTD 500, oughta be low inductance too. [it is!]

I only own LTD 450, 500 and 550 bodies. I wish I could trust what little information the VE cartridge database provides, but assuming for a moment that what's there is true, a definite (though puzzling) pattern emerges... I await verification.

 

[Tucker99]

I have these Empires:
a) 4000XLII with a clear purple colored stylus
b) 4000XLII with a white colored stylus
c) LTD 2000
d) ES70

The 4000XLII I quite like.

The other two I have not tried. Anyone know them? Might they be worthy of a new stylus or no??

 

[wualta]

I have these Empires:

c) LTD 2000
d) ES70

Anyone know them? Might they be worthy of a new stylus or no??

c ) EDIT: I think you meant LTD 200. That's the entry-level model in the first-gen Limited Edition (LTD) series. (second-gen LTD model numbers are the same but end in -50, except the LTD 750, which is first-gen and follow the first-gen rule of thumb). The body and stylus are similar (if not identical under the cosmetics) to the E 20, OP 2 and 200 E in the charts we've posted-- for example, they all have 3x7 ellipticals, require 250-300pF loading and track at 2.5g-- kinda heavy.

Worthy of a new stylus, yes, preferably from the next model up (the ones from the charts with model numbers beginning with 4 or 3; for example, the smoke-colored S300 ME stylus) if you can find one for a reasonable price.


d ) This one is an Excel (commonly misspelled "Excell") model number (I have one), so I'm stumped. A photo of that one would help. But wait-- I do have a 60 ES Empire Chunky. Could you have meant to type "70 ES"? I have no information on that one, but my 60 ES follows the pattern of "let's forget this low-inductance baloney and reach for the moon! Wind those coils bigger!" that Empire and other manufacturers were following at the time, even ADC. I strongly suspect all the late-production Chunkies will turn out to be 700mH, because they stopped following the rule of thumb. Also see below about the 1080 LT and by extension, the 1000 GT.

DMJ: Thanks for the tip on the Interface Dynamique auction. Cool to read it in French and see a legible scan of the brochure.

UPDATE: Stumbled onto one of the p-mount series, the 480LT. It uses the 400 TC stylus, whose recommended VTF is 1.25g, perfect for p-mount use. In fact, all the 4/40/400 models are candidates for p-mount duty, and several of them have indeed been converted to that standard, which was likely part of the plan from the beginning. The 480LT looks like this (below):



UPDATE: Recently (early December 2012) I managed to get a 1080 LT p-mount (above). Gold-plated cantilever (!), paralinear (= LAC, dimensionwise) stylus, even has little pads to help hold the stylus assembly snug in the body. The big surprise: even though this is a LAC-stylus cartridge in all but name, the body inductance is... 700mH. Which may explain some things for DMJ, since his 1000/900 GT models are simply the standard-mount version of the 1080 LT, same fancy cantilever, same styling.

So even though both the 480 LT and 1080 LT use Chunky-compatible styli, the 1080 LT (and 1000 GT) represent the next, all-700mH, generation. What makes this interesting is their fancy new LAC/Paralinear styli work best in the cheaper Chunkies. If you can find a 1080 LT or 1000 GT stylus, you can finally put a LAC on your 100S. Wow.

 

[dean man jim]

DMJ: Thanks for the tip on the Interface Dynamique auction. Cool to read it in French and see a legible scan of the brochure.
.

You're welcome, waulta. The PDF of the (English) Dynamic Interface brochure is very clear at VE (in the library section), just as clear as my coated paper one.

 

[GEKone]

Wualta, could you ID these styli? Are the four metal strips the snugger pads?

 

[wualta]

You got it! Good for you. Yep, those little slightly-lighter-gray rectangles on the plastic "shank" seem to be there to insure a tight fit. At first I was afraid they were magnets, as we've been suspecting might be on the 800 UFR weirdo stylus, which meant I wouldn't be able to use it... but they're not. SPOILER: Turns out they're not magnets on the 800UFR stylus either, but that's yet to come. And they're not "snuggers", they're more likely flux focusers.

It's difficult to tell from the blurry photo, but if you see what looks like gold paint on the stylus and cantilever, plus a superfine helper-wire or safety-wire (in case the cartridge is dropped on an LP), so thin it's hard to see, then you have a 1080LT with two of its proper styli... and one mystery stylus. I hope you can get a good macro shot of it so we can see what it is.

EDIT: I photoshopped the @$%! out of that lousy set of photographs the seller provided and got what looks like a very faint EMPIRE on that white stylus. If it's genuine, it might be an S77LAC like mine, which is ivory, not white [although there is a white LAC stylus, for the A 32 ST]. If that's the case, you'd have to use it in a 350mH body, or-- if you're picky-- it will sound just-noticeably-enough-to-annoy dull.

 

[Soundminded]

I have a 4000D/III with a spare genuine Empire stylus, a 999VE, 888T/EX, and floating around somewhere in my house are several 2000 series and even an 880PE. I've found that these cartridges only perform well with genuine Empire styli. I finally acquired NOS for the 999VE. For my 398 I switch off between the 999VE and 4000D/III (I've got two headshell mounting brackets) and they sound the same to me. I'm kind of wondering if I can upgrade the 999T/EX to a 999V/EX by just replacing the stylus. (A Shure V15 Type V MR is installed in my 698.)

These old cartridges use a mu metal case that shields them completely from stray magnetic fields (it's the only way it can be done.) They have outstandingly high compliance, low dynamic mass, in fact the only manufacturer whose specs for some models in this regard were better was ADC. For example the 999VE was 35x10E-6 cm/dyne. ADC ZLM or was it XLM was 50. I think the TOTL Shures are around 25. This is why these cartridges track so well without distortion at very low tracking force. IMO this is the single most important performance characteristic I look for because it means less stylus and record wear. Low output MC cartridges by contrast need 2 to 3 times the tracking force. That's not merely a matter of 4 to 9 times the wear rate but may be the difference between exceeding the elastic limit of vinyl causing permanent plastic deformation of the groove and not exceeding it.

Since I have no hesitation using an equalizer to compensate for spectral differences between cartridges I don't pay much attention to those differences.

Empire cartridges also have excellent channel separation over most of the audio band when properly aligned.

 

[beej]

I have several Empire carts including an 800UFR and an OP4. Cart bodies on those two are identical but, from what I've been able to learn, the UFR is a rather unique animal. OEM is here at rather hefty price tag: http://www.turntableneedles.com/Empire-S800UFR-Needle-241-DFR_p_1828.html.

I recently picked up an S500ID stylus which fits both the UFR and OP4 bodies. From what I've been able to learn (and I'm not certain about this) there were several styli in that series that have the external magnet design that the 800UFR has. Among them being the S600LAC, S500ID, S400TC and S300ME. I do know this: I've run the 500ID in both the UFR and the OP4. Sound is amazingly good in both but clearly superior in the 800UFR.

Can anyone:
1) confirm that the magnet designs on those lesser styli are similar to the 800UFR; and
2) shed any light on what those magnets are supposed to do?

Thanks.

 

[GEKone]

I have only seen magnets on the 800UFR.

 

[beej]

Thanks GEKone. Would the magnets listed under the specs here be internal to the cart then: http://www.vinylengine.com/library/empire/500id.shtml