anyone else running vintage Empire carts?

[russdall]

Don't forget kids.....many of the hard to find styli may be attached to a not so desirable Empire cart, on one of the many auction sites. Pay close attention to provide pics, and don't be afraid to ask the sellers questions. Good Luck....Happy Hunting

 

[Rolls-Royce]

Don't forget kids.....many of the hard to find styli may be attached to a not so desirable Empire cart on one of the many auction sites. Pay close attention to provide pics, and don't be afraid to ask the sellers questions. Good Luck....Happy Hunting

Same thing goes for the metal mounting clips.

 

[Free Speaker]

Nice snug fit of a 235-VDE in this 888 PE body too. It was holding onto its original stylus snugly as well. Snugger than the usual these days. I don't have my 999VE body with me, but will check the fit of the 888 "Pinkie" stylus when I do. Not definitive, I know, but the best I can do to duplicate your test.
View attachment 3528167
MYSTERIOUS-LOOKING "PINKIE"

This puzzles me, since the snug 235-VDE (999 VE/X) inserts all the way into my 888 PE, likewise my 999 TE/X. Manufacturing tolerances? Running change (ie, typical Empire)? Has anyone else hit a snag swapping a 235 stylus into a 232 body? Maybe my 236-ZDE has this little tab, but that's in the Other Facility too.
View attachment 3528165
235-VDE IN 888 PE BODY

Yes, indeed. It's the 236 ZDE style that has the litte tab that gets in the way, not the 235 VDE. In the shot above, a 235vde is on top, then a 236zde below it, then a generic 4235vde, and a generic 4236zde on the bottom. If you look close enough, you can see the little tab on the 236's. They fit in the slot on the high inductance 999vex and 1000zex bodies, so it's just the 236's that won't seat all the way on the 232 and low inductance 235 bodies. Thank you, Wualta, for pointing out that the 235vde stylus has the more 'universal' fit. Messing around with these on the old, purple-mount 999VE BODY has also loosened it up a little, so the 888ve 'pinky' and 888te styli will now, somewhat reluctantly, fit on it. I also found it interesting that the pic of Wualta's Astatic-packaged 888ve pinky stylus actually says 'A Genuine Product of Empire Scientific Corp', yet it has no copyright or little circular mark on top. My 888ve and 888te are the same way, making me wonder if Empire actually made the un-labelled finer styli for all the resellers back then, and just didn't take the credit.

 

[wualta]

"Pinkie", as John/boreas named it/him in 2018, was a big mystery when he/it showed up. Naturally I had to have my own example. In 2023, hucklecat discovered the similar Astatic-packaged S999VE ("Purplie"?). If you have an S888TE "Whitie", I'd be gratitudinal if you'd post a photo of it. I do like your idea that it was an OEM version for repackagers/resellers like Pfanstiehl and Astatic. Found a photo in my archive of an S888E "Greenie"! Not only that, but an early height shift in 888/P/PE mounting ears.


I did discover that one of my 4236-ZDEs (Walco?) looks much like yours. In any case, if output is deemed insufficient (I don't recall noticing this or testing it, but will test), a craft knife should slice right through the problem.

The 999 VE/X and 1000 ZE/X bodies have this slight difference compared to the models that came after, but both seem to find their origin in the 1000 ZE of 1970. I wish I had better photos, but here's what I have. Left to right: ZE, VE/X and ZE/X, all with what I call the Cartoon Mousehole opening into the body in lieu of a simple round hole.

Of these, the only body I own is the 1000 ZE/X, and of course it too isn't here. I would not be surprised to find a photo of the ZE stylus that has the tab. Why the VE/X stylus lacks it, I have no guesses, likewise for the fact that the ZE/X gets Pfanstiehl's 236 prefix all to itself, when it's clearly closely related to the VE/X. Whew!

 

[kels83]

Hi all, new user but have lurked to repair many vintage pieces. Currently, I picked up an Akai AP 207 with a gold Empire 4500 Z III cart on it. Unfortunately, the unmarked and transparent purple stylus had a bent cantilever. I love saving vintage equipment and am new to Empire, so I did a bunch of research and thought the Pfansteihl 237-DET would work. Cart is in great condition, I read here to measure the ohms between L & R. Both tested at 1005 ohms. I found a vendor selling NOS Phansteihl 237-DET and pulled the trigger and spent the next 4 hours polishing the dust cover of the Akai table. Today I received the stylus and it's labeled "Y Diamond" and it says "Pfansthiel 237-mini-DEZ" and it says made in Switzerland. Two questions:
1) Given they spelled Pfansteihl with the H in the wrong place (see quote above), is this thing legit? Are these things faked? The seller was My Needle Store out of Canada. I'm contemplating keeping it and picking up a cartridge (cheaper than a needle) vs. returning it.
2) What options are there for a replacement stylus? Is my research of the 237, 238, and 239 lines correct? This is a mini and WAY too small.

There isn't much out there on this 4500 Z III cart. Any suggestions for the best stylus will be appreciated by my family and the old cart!

 

[wualta]

First, welcome to our little corner of AudioKarma.
The "4500 Z III" was a suspected, and thanks to your measurement is now a known 2000E/I,II,III clone, so your prescription of a Pfanstiehl 237-DET stylus was absolutely correct. My Needle Store may not have the best reputation, but if they really sold you a "237-mini-DEZ", which is what a different US retailer, turntableneedles.com calls a stylus for the 2000Z, then not only have they sold you what you didn't order, it won't even stay in your 4500 Z III. The brass insertion shank will be too small and the stylus will fall right out of the cartridge. If you still have your clear-purple stylus (Empire didn't mark them until the end, and only on the flip-down guard), you can compare the cross-section of the brass shafts without removing the "237-mini-DEZ" from its packaging.

Good styli for these cartridges are hard to find and tend toward expensive when found. The 2000E family was popular, so lots of folks are looking for styli. Let's get this stylus switcheroo figured out before we deal with the dark side of long-gone cartridge makers and the not-very-many styli they left behind.

 

[kels83]

Thank you kindly, wualta. I'll return this, pick up a reproduction from another source, and continue hunting for something better!

 

[russdall]

Hi all, new user but have lurked to repair many vintage pieces

Welcome to the "rabbit hole" Empire, where twist and turns of uncommon sense abound. Just when we think we have all the pieces, POOF the illusion is shattered by some new hidden, mystical information. It's a wild and crazy ride......But oh what fun it is. Welcome to our wacky world..........Enjoy !

 

[wualta]

While hunting for a stylus for your 2000E clone, maybe consider picking up a cartridge body from the previous generation (or two-- they're compatible) for which original made-in-USA styli are still available and reasonably affordable off the shelf. For example, you can still get the second-best stylus from the most-recent previous generation, the 999 VE/X, for around $65 shipped, and it will fit and work with any of the bodies in this chart [click to enlarge]:

It will also work in the previous-to-the-above model lineup, the 888s (which, confusingly, also includes one 999 model, the 999 VE). See post 11,233 a page or so back.

 

[kels83]

Wow, you guys are so passionate I actually bought one and found a NOS 909 to try it out. I usually save cartridges I find on tables that I restore. This is the first vintage cartridge I've ever bought outright. I'm very curious to compare it with the others I have on hand.

 

[wualta]

Just so everybody knows, this is the 909/X from the above chart with its stock stylus (and the model I hope kels83 got):

REAL 909/X WITH 234-D7 STYLUS

And this 909/X Improved is one of the reasons why Empire became the rabbit hole we know so well in the next generation of models. Yes, it's just the same ol' 66. 66 clone, that is:

66 PRETENDING TO BE AN IMPROVEMENT, WITH GRAY 239-D7C (NORMALLY RED)

Rule of thumb: any metal-blob-on-a-clip model with "Improved" in the name is simply another 66 clone, though there are exceptions and quibbles. Nothing wrong with 66 clones per se, but this kind in particular causes needless confusion, especially now, because people risk buying the "Improved" stylus, thinking it will improve their older model with the same name, when the "Improved" stylus won't even fit the earlier model.

 

[Free Speaker]

"Pinkie", as John/boreas named it/him in 2018, was a big mystery when he/it showed up. Naturally I had to have my own example. In 2023, hucklecat discovered the similar Astatic-packaged S999VE ("Purplie"?). If you have an S888TE "Whitie", I'd be gratitudinal if you'd post a photo of it. I do like your idea that it was an OEM version for repackagers/resellers like Pfanstiehl and Astatic. Found a photo in my archive of an S888E "Greenie"! Not only that, but an early height shift in 888/P/PE mounting ears.
View attachment 3531192View attachment 3531190 View attachment 3531211 View attachment 3531196

I did discover that one of my 4236-ZDEs (Walco?) looks much like yours. In any case, if output is deemed insufficient (I don't recall noticing this or testing it, but will test), a craft knife should slice right through the problem.

The 999 VE/X and 1000 ZE/X bodies have this slight difference compared to the models that came after, but both seem to find their origin in the 1000 ZE of 1970. I wish I had better photos, but here's what I have. Left to right: ZE, VE/X and ZE/X, all with what I call the Cartoon Mousehole opening into the body in lieu of a simple round hole.
View attachment 3529841 View attachment 3529842 View attachment 3529843
Of these, the only body I own is the 1000 ZE/X, and of course it too isn't here. I would not be surprised to find a photo of the ZE stylus that has the tab. Why the VE/X stylus lacks it, I have no guesses, likewise for the fact that the ZE/X gets Pfanstiehl's 236 prefix all to itself, when it's clearly closely related to the VE/X. Whew!

So here is the unlabelled 'Whitie' you've heard tell about right here. Notice how cousin Pinky was an Astatic packaged bundle of joy, and was branded as such on top. Whitie was in a newer-then-what-we-usually-see EVG case and not branded at all. I have other 232-series arrowheads from EVG, one that is branded with EV in cursive on the side, and one that isn't. Both of them are green 232-de's and both say EMPIRE in gold on top.

 

[wualta]

Thanks! That's an old, old Electro-Voice box that Whitie was snuggled into. That lets Astatic out as the original perpetrator. I do wonder now whether these styli were simply factory mistakes, styli whose grips somehow escaped the hot gold-leaf stamp until after final assembly, when they could no longer be hot-stamped without damage.

 

[Jeannot61]

A genuine 2000E/III stylus would fit just fine. The problem is finding an affordable one. If you're thinking of an aftermarket version of the 2000E/III, I can't recommend one myself, since the several I bought sounded tolerable to outright lousy and I gave up wasting money. However, we know the aftermarket can make decent styli for Empires-- seems they just don't want to except on special occasions. Having said that, others who've tried the aftermarket more recently may have better news for you.

So: Anyone know of a good-sounding nude elliptical for the 66 or 2000 series?

As a fallback or interim stylus, there's always the genuine made-in-USA S906 (Pfanstiehl index 239-D7) conical sold by thevoiceofmusic.com for about $32 shipped. I fully understand the desire/need for a more sophisticated stylus, but I've been very impressed by the sound of Empire's conicals, and I'm not alone. Just something to keep in mind.

As for replacement of the diamond on an existing cantilever (the tiny metal tube that lost its end in your photos), that's possible but not exactly cheap, depending on how much work you want done and the sophistication of the diamond cut. Since your cantilever suffered damage, it may be necessary to replace cantilever and diamond. And that's assuming the rubber suspension grommet at the back of the cantilever is in good shape. Can of worms? It "can" be.

So do like me, I found several diamonds for 2000 E II and one for 2000 E III, for very reasonable prices, and in NOS, I am currently listening with a 2000 E II on my 2000 E III cartridge, it sounds just as good as the 2000 E III diamond! Of course, you shouldn't hesitate to buy one first, test it, and if it's positive and even excellent, buy the other available ones! I don't regret doing it, quite the opposite!

 

[audio-ed]

Mounted a EDR9 to my 698. Had been keeping it for a special occasion.. Very pleased with the results.

 

[wualta]

...Of course, you shouldn't hesitate to buy one first, test it, and if it's positive and even excellent, buy the other available ones! ...

I shouldn't have left off the possibility of buying NOS genuine-original Empires in Europe, as Jeannot61 has successfully done. He mentions a French seller in his earlier posts, so poke around, investigate it as well as the big vendors like Da Capo and Pickupnaalden. I know some (many?) are hesitant to buy overseas, but if you've heard the Empire sound and have decided it's for you, the risks (and expense) may be worth the trouble. Let us know what flavor of luck you have.

On another subject entirely, here's my 888 PE stylus [yes, it came this way] after crud removal in the ultrasonic bath. What struck me was that even though the cantilever looks like it's collapsed, it isn't-- there's very little more free movement in the down-toward-the-record direction. These really were low riders. No need to break out the WD-40. Just make sure the bottom surface of the grip is parallel to the record surface.

 

[Doug G.]

I bought a new stylus for my 2000Z a few years ago from a guy in Paris for 35 bucks, complete in its original little wooden box.

Doug

 

[KSM74]

Hi Doug. I was a little less lucky. I paid $42 for a S912E.

 

[KSM74]

If you have an S888TE "Whitie", I'd be gratitudinal if you'd post a photo of it.

I bought two Pfanstiehl 235-SDE on E-Bay. This is what arrived. It's a shame that the 999TE didn't fit my 999VE/X. The TE has a 1 mm longer shank. And for the 888TE needle, the 888PE body is already on its way.

 

[wualta]

I bought two Pfanstiehl 235-SDE on E-Bay. This is what arrived.

Well that's a cock-up of mammoth proportions, sure enough. We talk about the non-tamperproof Pfanstiehl packaging but here's a nice one.

... It's a shame that the 999TE[/X] didn't fit my 999VE/X. The TE has a 1 mm longer shank. And ... the 888 PE body is already on its way.

I'll have to try a 999TE/X stylus in my ZE/X body when I get hold of it. I must not have tried it before. That's very strange that they fit like that. Output may drop a little.
But also, I'd never tried going from an 999*/X stylus back to an 888 stylus in a 999*/X body, but by golly, the 888 stylus won't insert all the way into the newer (999 TE/X) body. At least I can say that's the case with my two Pinkies (one with the Astatic stamp). Glad you found an 888! Is it low ears, high ears or plastic ears?