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anyone else running vintage Empire carts?

I lied about being able to read French horizontally. :D In spite of my French family name (Gaucher, Americanized to Gosha), and my ancestors, 3 generations back undoubtedly well spoken in the language, I know very little French, myself.

My daughter-in-law DOES speak French.

Now, if I only had a 1000 ZE/X, I'd run it through one of my CD-4 demodulators!

Doug
 
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An S912E or S917E on a ~350mH body would be a decent stand-in, I would think. Empire's ad agency tended to embroider the truth about their client's product, but I don't want to disappoint the readers of Electronics For You, so I'm hoping an early-'70s Empire can win through. Thanks for being willing to put the old dears to the test.

Obviously, no rush on this. Those readers have been waiting more than fifty years; they can wait a little longer.
 
Close enough! With the indulgence of the aforementioned readers, we'll grandfather the 1000 ZE/X through.
Anyone wishing to read a French audio magazine's brisk tour of the whole 1000 ZE/X family plus a nod to the then-new 66E/X ("très interessant") should travel back to 12 Octobre 1972 and p.236 of Le Haut-Parleur. While informative, this is mostly copy from Empire's French distributor of the time, Jervis. Still, it's one of the very few mentions of the 66 models, aside from directories, that I've found in audio magazines so far. Which, coming off the marketing blitz for the 999 VE/X and 1000 ZE/X, is more than a little strange. I'm looking for an online archive of German audio magazines, but they're probably behind a paywall, like Gramophone and other UK publications. Grumble..
 
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Has anyone tried the generic S2000Z that tVOM (thevoiceofmusic.com) has in stock at the moment? 4237-DEZ. It's listed as a 3x7 elliptical from "EVG Swiss". M. Jeannot pointed to this in another thread, and it would be great to have an affordable (if perhaps not ideal) stylus we could recommend to newly-minted Empiristas.

Apropos the difficulty of finding tests of the 2000E family, HiFi News & Record Review did a multi-cartridge test by B.J. Webb in the Dec 1976 issue. Archive.org has it but says it can't be "borrowed", and the World Radio History archive says HFN yanked all issues from the site. If any readers in the UK know of another online archive or have a copy and can fling us an image of the relevant pages, we'd be very grateful.
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Likewise, if anyone has the Feb 1976 issue of FM Guide...
 
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Hello everyone, I was able to recover a NOS Empire 2000 diamond, and I tested it and compared it to other diamonds I own, a generic smoked spherical diamond, a 667-DE from Tonar, and two NOS, E II and E III on my Empire 2000 E III cartridge. I must say that I was impressed by the performance of the 2000 diamond; although it is spherical, it produces a great sound, just like the E II and E III, definitely much better than the 667-DE. There are still about a hundred S2000 available gradually on Le Bon Coin, would you be interested in what I have written and the photos? If so, should I post the test here or elsewhere?20250717_145922.jpg
 
Very glad you have good results with the conical/spherical S2000 "smoke" stylus. It certainly impressed me. I think we'd all like to see the results of your testing here in this thread-- after all, conicalphobia is still widespread, and in a world of ever-decreasing original elliptical styli, it's good to know that conicals need not be shunned. As Joni Mitchell sang, something's lost but something's gained.
 
Diamond tests for Empire 2000 E III – NOS diamonds still available online and substitute diamonds
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About a year and a half ago, seeing the resurgence of vinyl, I thought I would bring down one of my record players from the attic. On one of these turntables, I had and still have an excellent cartridge of American origin, known to aficionados as a high-end cartridge that is still very performant, provided, of course, that you pair it with a diamond worthy of the name.
The cartridge, known as the EMPIRE 2000 E III, still had a diamond stamped Empire, but post 85. In fact, Empire, at the time, seeing that vinyl was gradually but surely falling into disuse, sold the 'Cartridges and Diamonds' department to another company, which continued to manufacture and distribute diamonds for Empire cartridges.
Having bought this cartridge back in the late 70s or very early 80s (I’m not quite sure…), it was equipped with a diamond still manufactured directly by Empire, or by one of the other well-known manufacturers of the time, namely Pfanstiehl or Fidelitone. Its cantilever had a slightly conical shape, and the diamond was elliptical in shape, hand-cut, measuring 0.2 x 0.7 mil (5.08µm x 17.8µm). Then during the re-manufacturing, it was possible to find diamonds post-85, with similar characteristics, but this time with a cylindrical cantilever and a black dot designating an elliptical-shaped diamond.
Having still many vintage records, and yielding to the wave of vinyl renewal, I began to search for diamonds worthy of equipping the Empire 2000 E III. I started with a spherical diamond, with a radius of 0.7 mil, but it did not sound like the post 85. Moreover, it required at least 1.5 grams of pressure to produce a correct sound, and sometimes, depending on the records, it even needed to go up to 2.0 grams. Then, I found a good diamond from Tonar, the 667-DE, elliptical, at 0.3 x 0.7 mil (7.6μm x 17.8µm), but which required, according to Tonar, between 1.5 to 2.0 grams of pressure for proper playback. From 1.75 grams, it’s true that it started to play correctly, but nonetheless, there was sometimes a certain sibilance in the highs in specific passages of some tracks. With 2.0 grams or a bit less, it improved things. But despite that, I still did not quite find the original Empire sound.
While researching on the internet, I found an equivalent reference for the 2000 E II and 2000 E III, in fact, the reference 237-DET from Pfanstiehl. The size of the diamond is exactly the same, only the color differs (blue for the 2000 E II cell and clear for the 2000 E III cell). Then I was lucky to find a diamond for the 2000 E II, and then several others, and finally another one for the 2000 E III.
After conducting several tests, ultimately the two diamonds sound the same, I can't find any differences. I calibrated them to 1.25 grams of pressure, they both perform wonderfully and compared to the post 85, I find the famous Empire sound! Moreover, they are NOS, which means "New Old Stock," or new old stock, which means original diamonds, never used and new, but coming from an old stock. They have a conical cantilever, so they were manufactured before 85.
The person who provided me with these diamonds also has more diamonds for Empire 2000, namely spherical ones, but also some Empire 2000 E II. I therefore suggested testing a spherical diamond 2000 on my cell, as many users are asking questions about it to equip their Empire 2000 cells.

So here I am involved in testing the different diamonds, NOS or not...
I listen to different styles of music, but certain references allow us to measure or appreciate the dynamics of music, such as 'Brothers In Arms' by Dire Straits or 'Thriller' by Michael Jackson. Of course, for classical music enthusiasts, there is also 'The Four Seasons' by Vivaldi. Other pieces or benchmarks include the Beatles, Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here or The Dark Side Of The Moon), AC/DC, and many more...
I then started listening to these different vinyl records, swapping the diamonds and maintaining the same sound level with the same bass/treble compensation settings. For your information, the amplification part is entrusted to a vintage Pioneer SA-506 amplifier (2 x 25W RMS) which has a very 80s sound, and the speakers are a pair of 3A Auditorat Phase Plus, also vintage (60W nominal, 92dB/1W/1m) powered by 4.0mm² section cables per strand. As for the turntable, it is also vintage and has been refurbished for the occasion (overhauling the arm lift system and new silicone grease with a rating of 300,000, new belt, revising the speed management system of the platter, changing the shielded cables, adjusting the arm, new feet (the original ones were no longer up to the task), ...). For your information, the base is a Sherwood PD-701, well refurbished, stable and very quiet (Sherwood is still known today for its models for DJs, but less so for individuals).
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It is worth saying that numerous music styles were then used to assess the qualities and sounds of each diamond…

Presentation of the diamonds
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Starting from the top left, then going to the right, and ending at the bottom, a spherical diamond from Y Diamond (brown smoked), then a NOS Empire 2000 post 85 (spherical), followed by an elliptical diamond from Tonar, the 667-DE, which represents a good replacement solution for a fair price, then a NOS Empire 2000 E II, and a NOS Empire 2000 E III. In the center, a second perfectly functional Empire 2000 E III cell equipped with a NOS 2000 E III post 85. I also still have a Zafira diamond for Empire 2000 E I, an excellent clone of the time, which was sold under the reference 5588, but which, unlike the Empire diamonds, is no longer available today (or only with extraordinary luck!!!). I did not include it in this test.
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The same goes for diamonds that have been removed from their original packaging, first with the guard down, then raised.

The tests

Different chosen pieces are listened to, along with the various diamonds. It is evident that the current remakes, even if they allow the cell to be equipped, do not reach the level of NOS diamonds. The sound remains good, but is lacking compared to that of NOS diamonds. Therefore, I classify the diamonds in this order (from least good to best):

- the diamond from Y Diamond, spherical, weighing around 1.75 to 2.0 grams for tracking. The sound is good, but its definition is not sufficient. It somewhat feels like the volume level is lower, and especially as if a cloth has been placed between the speakers and the listening point. It is far from bad, but after listening to an Empire sound, it is indeed lacking. Some sibilance may appear in a few tracks, and depending on the turntable, it might be necessary to add a bit more weight to eliminate it. For an average ear, it will remain a good sound, much better than with other more or less exotic or mid-range cartridges. In terms of distortion, I did not notice or record any exaggerated values, especially since the diamond is still relatively new, not used for very long. For someone who wants to listen to music without breaking the bank and without seeking a certain perfection in the playback, this can be a temporary alternative, but no more than that.
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- the diamond from Tonar, under reference 667-DE, elliptical 0.3 x 0.7, is a good compromise between quality and cost. The sound is good, warmer than with the spherical diamond from Y Diamond, especially when the tracking force approaches or exceeds 1.75 grams. Tonar also recommends between 1.5 and 2.0 grams for good tracking. However, it requires good break-in, at least about thirty hours, and there can still be a little sibilance on certain tracks. In terms of any possible distortion, I have not noted any that could be bothersome or exaggerated. At the risk of repeating myself, it is truly a good price/quality compromise.

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- the S2000 diamond, spherical, post 85 because its cantilever is cylindrical, is labeled Empire, and it is worthy of the Empire sound. It comes from the Le Bon Coin website. With the 2000 E III airframe, it even becomes difficult to differentiate with the following elliptical ones (E II and E III). It gives a precise, soft, detailed and balanced sound, the bass is present, the mids are soft and silky, the treble is very present. I was expecting a softer sound than with an elliptical, so be it, it will be a little, but without exaggeration and so subtle that it's difficult to tell which one is spherical and which one is elliptical (between NOS Empire diamonds). There is no sibilance, it's fluid, precise, and the Empire sound is very present. Comparing for example listening to the tracks "Time" or "Money" by Pink Floyd, and at the risk of repeating myself, it is very difficult to say whether it is a spherical or elliptical diamond, as the comparison with an E II or E III diamond is almost impossible. The suspension has retained all its flexibility despite the years, proof that it has been well stored. Moreover, while browsing the forums dedicated to Empire cartridges, I have rarely read that users have had surprises in this area (this is not the case with other vintage diamonds from other cartridge brands where the suspension has become too rigid or on the contrary too flexible). Here, it passed without any problem with a tracking force of 1.25 grams (1 to 3 grams recommended at the time by Empire).

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- the two diamonds 2000 E II and 2000 E III, from before 85, perhaps even before 80, are quite similar, and it’s difficult to differentiate them, except by color. They also come from the site Le Bon Coin. In fact, a famous manufacturer; Pfanstiehl for instance, listed both under the same reference, 237-DET, and at that time, it happened that when you ordered a diamond for an E III cartridge, you could receive a blue one instead of a clear one, and vice versa for an E II cartridge, where you might receive a clear one. Moreover, at the time when NOS diamonds were still relatively easy to find, it was even common and we didn't always know if the color would match, which was indicated on the seller's site. Only the other diamonds, like the smoky one for the Empire 2000, the red one for the Empire 2000 E, the green one for the Empire 2000 E I truly allowed for accurate color matching. So the transparent and blue diamonds were set apart by color, perfectly similar!

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In listening, it's Empire sound, you can't go wrong (though you have to have listened to an Empire cartridge equipped with an original diamond to realize it and be able to compare). The sound is precise, clear, all frequencies come through wonderfully well, it's dynamic and there's depth in the sound spectrum! You really feel like you're there! No distortion, and with a tracking pressure of 1.25 grams for these tests (0.5 to 1.5 grams recommended by Empire). That's also why I bought several available E II diamonds and the latest E III for my Empire 2000 E III cartridge!

Where to find these diamonds?

As of today, for those interested, certain references 2000 and 2000 E II are still being sold on the site 'le bon coin' in France. It's certainly worth a visit to find the diamond that will suit both your wallet and your needs! And it’s always the same seller, and having purchased a few, I can certify that they have been well stored and that they show no defects.

Are there still other diamonds for this cartridge?

Indeed, there are other diamonds, such as those for the 4000 series, compatible with the 2000 series, but also very difficult to find in NOS, and Shibata diamonds, or Fine Line or Line Contact diamonds, which are very expensive because, like the vintage Empire diamonds, they are hand-cut. They can represent a good compromise to NOS or other contemporary reproductions, but with a lower output level (mV), so it will be necessary to compensate on the preamplifier. Nevertheless, the feedback I have received is that they provide excellent highs, but the rest of the sound spectrum is somewhat lacking compared to the other diamonds of the 2000 series (with a drier or less warm sound).


Conclusion

This personal test was carried out to assist individuals looking for a good diamond, depending on their budgets, for their Empire 2000, 2000 E, 2000 E I, 2000 E II, and 2000 E III cartridges. There are other 2000 cartridges, such as the T or Z, but the diamonds are not compatible with each other. This test will also help avoid months of trial and error in searching for the diamond that meets both quality and price criteria for each person's passion. If I embarked on this test, it is of course out of passion, but also to spare individuals from having to search for the necessary information and the potential diamonds to be fitted to the cartridges.

Similarly, how to know if a diamond for 2000 can for example fit on a 2000 E I or another model? It must be understood that all bodies of the 2000 series (except for the T or Z), come from the same production lines, and have then been sorted to meet the intrinsic characteristics for each model. Thus, all these diamonds are interchangeable among themselves within these 2000 series. Of course, one must already have a trained ear to listen and be able to compare the differences between the diamond models. And to answer the question of whether it is possible to put an equivalent diamond on a cartridge like this 2000 E III, my answer would be yes. Nevertheless, there are diamonds and diamonds, there are manufacturers and manufacturers, and of course, there are expected results in relation to all of this.

I would therefore discourage entry-level diamonds, as they are generally spherical, which need significant supporting forces, which can over time prematurely wear out the groove of the discs, and will produce a very average sound, with a sometimes reduced sound range, with a less precise or detailed sound. The highs often suffer, which is a shame for certain pieces of music!

The reference 667-DE from Tonar is a good basis for already having a good, if not very good sound, and is available at times, sometimes out of stock, at major diamond retailers. If you do not want to spend too much money and want a good sound, I can recommend it to you.

The NOS Empire, which are becoming increasingly rare, can sometimes be found online in America, but at incredible and unaffordable prices, and currently on Le Bon Coin in France (but for how much longer???), are what is recommended to regain the Empire sound, so characteristic! And to top it all off, these diamonds are interchangeable with each other, and even if they do not exactly match the correct cartridge, they still guarantee an extraordinary sound! For example, for the Empire 2000 E III cartridge, you can opt for a diamond for E II that has the same characteristics as the E III, but also why not choose another as in this test, a diamond for Empire 2000, knowing that the final results will be very similar to the E II or III.

I hope I was able to help you, as after doing my research for almost a year and a half, I have seen many people asking questions about this on forums, or asking where to find a certain type of diamond or for a certain cell. Feel free to ask me questions, I will be happy to answer them ;)
 
After further listens with the S2000 and comparing it to the E II or E III (before or after '85), I conclude that the sound spectrum of the spherical is just as wonderful as that of the ellipticals. Of course, I think there is a good chance that it won't last as long, since its wear will be more significant compared to that of the ellipticals, but given the negotiable price and its sound quality, my opinion is that it's worth it! Has anyone else ever tried to compare like I did?
 
After further listens with the S2000 and comparing it to the E II or E III (before or after '85), I conclude that the sound spectrum of the spherical is just as wonderful as that of the ellipticals. Of course, I think there is a good chance that it won't last as long, since its wear will be more significant compared to that of the ellipticals, but given the negotiable price and its sound quality, my opinion is that it's worth it! Has anyone else ever tried to compare like I did?
I gave my sister a Technics table with an Empire blob cartridge with original elliptical stylus, It wasn't long after that when the diamond fell off the cantilever and needed to be replaced. I got her a conical as a replacement, and the one thing I noticed beyond having to adjust the tracking force upward, was the significant increase surface noise. Seems logical as a conical rides higher in the grove and will read more of the abrasion on the vinyl.
 
I have indeed noticed that with recent records (remastered vinyls, certainly with the original logical recordings), there is less dynamics, but this is also true with an elliptical, however, there can indeed be a slight surface noise, which I do not have with the elliptical. On older records, however, I do not have this phenomenon.
 
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If you have two styli, one a conical and one an elliptical, and they have the same lateral (side-to-side) dimension/radius (say .7 mil), they will track at the same height in the groove.

Also, the wear characteristics of the two styli, given they are made of the same material, will be similar. It isn't until you get into the more linear tracing radius styli, like Shibata or micro linear/ridge, that the wear decreases because of the increased contact area, thus reducing the pressure of the contact on the groove walls.

Doug
 
I completely agree. However, since this spherical diamond is from after '85, it is likely that its starting dimensions are slightly different from those initially used for diamonds before '85, which would explain this phenomenon. This is of course just an assumption on my part, because when I compare, for example, the post-'85 elliptical diamond, its size is very similar to what is made today, while the elliptical diamonds before '85 were still mostly handmade. Nevertheless, it is worth noting that for the supporting forces, they remain similar between post-'85 and pre-'85. Likewise, the final sound that results, and thus comes from the speakers, remains the same for both post-'85 and pre-'85. I think that the combination of the suspension and the different materials that were used at the time plays a significant role in the faithful reproduction of Empire.
 
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Emp 999 PE/X arrived yesterday. Sweet sound and remarkable detail. That said I'm not entirely certain that I trust the suspension on the OEM stylus. Seems to be a bit of a low rider (or at least lower than I'm accustomed to seeing. Performed the obligatory measurements on the Empire Induc thread. They are:
DCR (L/R)
552/586

INDUC (L/R)
353/340

Looking at Gary's listing for a replacement stylus. Am I reading this correctly? Product Detail (thevoiceofmusic.com)
The stylus listed for the 999 PE/X is an original Empire?

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Going back to the 999 PE/X, What is the best available stylus for it today?
Thanks...
 
But maybe someone somewhere has a 1000 ZE/X (236-ZDE). Anyone spot such a thing?
They are out there........But, the 1000 ZE/X come at a premium....The 999 VE/X are a little easier to find, but as you know, they aren't giving those away either. :(
So the quest continues..................................
 
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