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AR-3A speakers, Why were they so good regarding the deep Bass

Springs have elastic limits, but air does not. Obviously the mechanical components of a driver can fail, but that's a different issue.
 
I was going to respond that you and I have a limit on the amount of force we can produce, and that the 3a enclosure is much bigger, and the excursion of the cone is not great enough to compress or rarify the air anywhere near that much. But then I realized what I think you have been trying to get across - that there is a limit to the motion of the cone - the spider and surround keep it from compressing or rarifying the air in the enclosure (and outside of it, too, for that matter) infinitely. It's certainly hard to argue against that.
All I was trying to point out was that the air in the enclosure does act like a spring, and that it's restoring force is more linear than the restoring forces of stiff surrounds and spiders. There obviously is a limit to excursion of any driver, but by the time you've started bottoming out a 3a, you've probably driven any listener with unimpaired hearing out of even a large room. Which, to circle back to my first post in this thread, is related to the goals of designers of the early years of audio - they would not have seen much point in making home speakers which could play louder than an orchestra going full tilt, which is loud, but not enough to collapse ear drums and make people's ears bleed.
 
Just a note:
I have tried quite a few sub woofers with my modified Magnapans, and the only ones that would match up to them in speed and clarity were NHT W2 cabinets (Acoustic Suspended 12" driver). And the driver is fairly robust.
Regards,
Jim
 
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Nat said:
All I was trying to point out was that the air in the enclosure does act like a spring, and that it's restoring force is more linear than the restoring forces of stiff surrounds and spiders.
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Yeah, and you have to think of the spring as not being just the confined air, but a "unit" of the air, the cone, the spider and the surround.
 
I have been watching this thread as it becomes more and more academic (this from someone who spelled "bass" wrong in the title lol", but it leaves more questions. In Pete's very well thought out post, Vilcher later used the same woofer (with very slight modifications) in several other models including the LST. It was,and STILL is a great speaker but it was never recognized as " a great speaker" in it's own right (price?). Nat then goes on to say "sticking it in a unsuitable sized box would cause distortion well I would call the size of the LST "an unsuitable" size box" still the units I've listened to are no better in the low range ( no worse either) then the AR-3A. Bill please elaborate on your comment regarding newer speakers being "infinite baffles" rather than acoustic suspension.. Seems to me the reverse is true. With today's shipping costs we may never see a true infinite baffle speaker again. Has me thinking about the "Carver Amazing's. Wonder how much shipping costs would be today?
 
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I know from experience that the AR3a can overwhelm a small room. Otherwise, it is a seminal loudspeaker design that I consider one of the all time great designs. In its day, it was damned hard to beat for the sound quality coming from a (relatively) small box. I've heard better from the AR3a era, but none close to its size could match it, although some came fairly close. What bettered it? To my ears some of the larger ALTEC and Electro-Voice models that were totally awesome and a lot larger than the AR3a (but maybe not heavier). Then there was the Klipsch Korner Horn, which sounds incredible - but only in an appropriate room. Again, it's a giant box compared to the AR3a. But, given the necessary compromises in the AR3a design, I don't see how it could be better unless it had a more modern "tweeter."
 
danj said:
...But, given the necessary compromises in the AR3a design, I don't see how it could be better unless it had a more modern "tweeter."
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The AR-91 and AR-58S were modern voiced speakers (less treble roll off than the 3/3a's), that used the tweeters from the AR Vertical Series. That Series included the AR-9, AR-90, AR-91, and AR-92. To me, the pinnacle of Acoustic Research design.
 
Markbark - I'm not sure what the internal volume of the LST is, but I've assumed that either it was pretty close to that of the 3 and 3a, or the mass or compliance of the woofer was adjusted to compensate for the difference. By unsuitable boxes I meant significantly different from that demanded by the mass and compliance of the driver -- if you stuck the 3 woofer in a large Bozak enclosure, it wouldn't work well - very little restoring force, so it would be be easy to have excessive excursion, and bloated bass, probably until the unit self destructed. On the other hand, if you stuck a Bozak woofer in a 3a size enclosure, you would loose most of the low end - which is exactly what happened when they did with the first big bookshelf Bozaks. Many Kabuki speakers have similar designs.

Infinite baffle is an ambiguous term. It should mean a sealed box that emulates a panel of infinite size open to the atmosphere on either side so compression and rarification forces are negligible, and no reflection causing boundaries anywhere near enough to cause interference. Large enclosures like the big Bozaks are relatively close approximations. But a lot of manufacturers now seem to refer to any sealed box as an infinite baffle, and I wanted convey the idea of sealed boxes that were not proper acoustic suspension speakers, which are designed for flat frequency response, but instead bump up mid bass to give the impression of deep bass. I should have said it more fully and clearly.
 
StimpyWan said:
The AR-91 and AR-58S were modern voiced speakers (less treble roll off than the 3/3a's), that used the tweeters from the AR Vertical Series. That Series included the AR-9, AR-90, AR-91, and AR-92. To me, the pinnacle of Acoustic Research design.
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Yes. They were very excellent but, alas, came on the scene when AR was on the decline as a company. Around here there were no AR dealers within 50 miles during their later years so their exposure was pretty spotty. The last AR dealer in my town went bankrupt 30 years ago. The current "AR" bears no relation to the original company.
 
danj said:
Yes. They were very excellent but, alas, came on the scene when AR was on the decline as a company. Around here there were no AR dealers within 50 miles during their later years so their exposure was pretty spotty. The last AR dealer in my town went bankrupt 30 years ago. The current "AR" bears no relation to the original company.
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I'm not sure that I'd describe AR as being on "decline" when the Vertical Series was introduced. The decline of AR more likely began around 1989, after being sold by Teledyne. Though, at one point, AR held a greater than 30% market share of loudspeaker sales. That's huge numbers. Sales figures like that would be hard to maintain by anyone. So in that sense, AR went into decline, after the AR3/3a, 2, and 4 peak.
 
Even after 1989, there was still some quality products that came out...namely the AR 303 that was designed by our famous Ken Kantor in 1995 era. It was a tribute to the 3a and is a powerful deep bass speaker.
 
The AR Classic series was very powerful with great build quality.

The Holographic Series was very innovative and modern, and nice sounding.

And the AR1/Sunfire powered tower was a BEAST, which they only sold a handful of. The amps were prone to overheating, but they were a pretty well thought out system with really nice components.

Don't sleep on some of the 1990s/2000s gear.
 
centsless said:
Even after 1989, there was still some quality products that came out...namely the AR 303 that was designed by our famous Ken Kantor in 1995 era. It was a tribute to the 3a and is a powerful deep bass speaker.
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I've never heard Ken's final series with AR. I'd like too, but I've never seen any pop up locally.

And if the AR303 was released in 1995, I guess AR's true downfall started in 1996. "In 1996, Jensen, including AR, was sold to Recoton Audio Corporation." (per Wiki).
 
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