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Are the Numark DDs really that terrible for audiophile?

darklife

darklife

Modulating Madness
My last post fell of deaf ears it seems over my recent acquisition of a TT-1520.
Initial opinion was it looked like they cheaped out on some things like the plastic parts. The AT cartridge it came with was for DJing so I know it wasn't meant for audiophile use.

What I've done so far is replace the AT with a Shure 91ED.
Next up was flipping over the god awful bling of a felt mat. I prefer the black boring side rather than the hypnotic look of whatever that is.

The rumble from this thing picking up walking around was ridiculous and had me wanting to go back to my belt drive TT that is currently having issues.
I looked up the manual online for the Numark and noticed something I wonder if other owners picked up on? It explains that the feet are adjustable and when I adjusted mine I noticed they were screwed all the way in having plastic on plastic scrunched up instead of the cushion it should sit on when unscrewed factory tight.

Upon adjusting the feet to get the "spring" back with proper padding instead of the plastic sitting on itself there was a massive improvement in vibration issues which seems to be the common issue with DJs and these tables.

Anyone? Any people here own this? I know it's a DJ table but am trying to convert it to some sort of audiophile table.
 
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I had one. It's a decent table. An n93e stylus, 1.5-3 grams, is a better match for that arm. N95 or n97 stylus will work on an m91. Thevoiceofmusic.com has good stylus prices. They have an n97ej nude elliptical, last time I looked. You might have to take the guard off but they work great. The n95ed they have will track at 2 grams which is in the sweet spot for that arm. Enjoy that table, upgrade when you can.
 
oldman54 said:
I had one. It's a decent table. An n93e stylus, 1.5-3 grams, is a better match for that arm. N95 or n97 stylus will work on an m91. Thevoiceofmusic.com has good stylus prices. They have an n97ej nude elliptical, last time I looked. You might have to take the guard off but they work great. The n95ed they have will track at 2 grams which is in the sweet spot for that arm. Enjoy that table, upgrade when you can.
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Will upgrade when I can. One thing I noticed is my M91 sounds like the inner tracks sound cripsy or even slightly distorted with high frequencies. I noticed this too on my last TT. Wondering if that is a common thing with the Shure cartridges?

I even went as far as using an alignment printed paper to setup azimuth but it doesn't seem to make a difference on either turntable given the same cartridge and stylus. Hope my cartridge isn't screwed up because everything sound fine until that last track on a record and it gets meh sounding. Read years ago this is common simply from the medium itself but man it bothers me those last few minutes because it starts sounding scratchy and I've tried everything. Even the DJ AT cartridge didn't seem to do that from what I recall but I don't want to put 2.5 grams tracking force on my stuff and the Shure does sound good o_O
 
It looks like it is more substantial than the Numark “dj” tables a local record store uses for customer listening..The ones I have used are plastic crap with terrible switches that no dj could rely on. From what I have seen the Audio Technica 120 series is much better for around the same money.
 
darklife said:
Will upgrade when I can. One thing I noticed is my M91 sounds like the inner tracks sound cripsy or even slightly distorted with high frequencies. I noticed this too on my last TT. Wondering if that is a common thing with the Shure cartridges?

I even went as far as using an alignment printed paper to setup azimuth but it doesn't seem to make a difference on either turntable given the same cartridge and stylus. Hope my cartridge isn't screwed up because everything sound fine until that last track on a record and it gets meh sounding. Read years ago this is common simply from the medium itself but man it bothers me those last few minutes because it starts sounding scratchy and I've tried everything. Even the DJ AT cartridge didn't seem to do that from what I recall but I don't want to put 2.5 grams tracking force on my stuff and the Shure does sound good o_O
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I believe you're confused about what azimuth is. I don't think this table offers any adjustment for azimuth so shims would be required for adjustment if needed, also not to be confused with VTA or SRA.
 
At a glance, it looks like it might serve as a decent bottom-budget audiophile turntable. It looks to have the same arm as you find on many cheap SL1200 clones. I tried a Scansonic (belt-drive) with similar arm in my secondary system. It sounded very nice with the stock AT3600L cartridge. I also tried a Shure M97xE on it but the sound wasn't enhanced at all. I suspect the arm is a little on the heavy side for high-compliance cartridges like the M97xE and M91ED, but also the stock AT3600L is pretty good.

The distortion you're experiencing on the last track is called Inner Groove Distortion (IGD). It may be that the cartridge needs re-aligning - there are different alignment schemes and some give rise to more IGD than others. As indicated above, I also wonder whether that arm is up to hosting a light-tracking cartridge like the M91ED - not only in terms of tonearm mass but whether the arm bearings are smooth enough.
 
Crab33 said:
I also wonder whether that arm is up to hosting a light-tracking cartridge like the M91ED - not only in terms of tonearm mass but whether the arm bearings are smooth enough.
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That may be the case sadly, however I had the same M91ED on my Garrard GT-35 which was made for a lighter tracking cart and it did the same thing.
Now I'm starting to doubt myself and wonder if it may simply be one or two of the records I listened to. I'll have to pay closer attention next time or put on something I know I can trust
musically that is known to sound good on inner groves on other decks.
Thing is swapping out the cart with the original and back just to test this is annoying and time consuming lol.
The stylus I put on the Shure cart years ago was a cheap knockoff from the amazons so who knows if it's even that good to begin with.

Really I just need to enjoy the thing already instead of pulling hair over the fine details :rflmao:
 
From the manual:
Wow and flutter Less than 0.20%
S/N ratio 55dB (DIN-B)

Those are pretty bad specs, especially for a modern direct direct drive table.
Enjoy it while you have it. But if you hear unstable pitch with piano music or excessive rumble between tracks, then it would be worthwhile to save up for a better table.
 
Quick update:
I went back to the ATN3600L cartridge and the audio cleaned right up with inner tracks on the record I was listening to that had the issue last night with the M91ED.
Going to keep tracking force set to 2.5 grams for now as stated by oldman54 above since the tonearm does indeed seem to work better with the heavier cartridge :dunno:
 
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Jeff449 said:
From the manual:
Wow and flutter Less than 0.20%
S/N ratio 55dB (DIN-B)

Those are pretty bad specs, especially for a modern direct direct drive table.
Enjoy it while you have it. But if you hear unstable pitch with piano music or excessive rumble between tracks, then it would be worthwhile to save up for a better table.
Click to expand...
Definitly will keep my eyes out for something better but this was free so no complaints and my Garrard was on the last leg.
I do run a local radio show so a DJ deck isn't the worst option anyway for my fun.
 
darklife said:
That may be the case sadly, however I had the same M91ED on my Garrard GT-35 which was made for a lighter tracking cart and it did the same thing.
Thing is swapping out the cart with the original and back just to test this is annoying and time consuming lol.
The stylus I put on the Shure cart years ago was a cheap knockoff from the amazons so who knows if it's even that good to begin with.
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If the stylus is a cheap aftermarket then the tracking may well be questionable. If you want to try an alternative cartridge, you could have one in a spare headshell without having to remove the Shure from the stock headshell. An AT-VM95E would probably be fine for that turntable.

EDIT: By the way, aftermarket styli often need a higher tracking force than the original to track somewhere near properly. If you're running the M91ED at the usual 1.25g, I would increase it to 1.5g or more and see how that works out.
 
Darklife if you broadcast on radio, AM or FM, you should have a turntable that meets the FCC standards. Kent can better advise you as to radio station turntables. There's a couple definition's for DJ, one DJ who scratches records and the second who plays records at a radio station or club with the goal of excellernt sound quality. I'd be moving on from the Numark as soon as possible.
 
Kit Carson said:
Darklife if you broadcast on radio, AM or FM, you should have a turntable that meets the FCC standards. Kent can better advise you as to radio station turntables. There's a couple definition's for DJ, one DJ who scratches records and the second who plays records at a radio station or club with the goal of excellernt sound quality. I'd be moving on from the Numark as soon as possible.
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You mean NAB standards (National Association of Broadcasters). Technics SL-1100 or SL-1200 are accepted for broadcast station use (quite a few stations did). Those were regarded as the entry models.
 
Maybe somebody can confirm whether the TT-1520 is one of the 'Super OEM' machines? There have been two classes of SL-1200 'clone' made by Asian manufacturers, one that has in recent years fallen into the $250-400 range (USD) and the other in the $500-800 range. The ATLP120 was in the second tier while something like the PLX-1000 was in the second tier, the 'Super OEM' tables.

If the TT-1520 is a Super OEM then it's a pretty darned good turntable. The first tier 'OEMs' are also great for those getting started, and are very affordable.
 
DavidTT in my opinion I don't consider any of the SL-1200 "clones" audiophile and unless like the OP you receive one for free they are not worth the investment of $250-400 for a bottom model let alone $500-800 for a Super OEM model. With some educated shopping for the same money there are numerous preowned Japan made Technics tables available that far outshine the "clones" and can be called audiophile with specs and sound quality that earns the title.
 
Kit Carson said:
DavidTT in my opinion I don't consider any of the SL-1200 "clones" audiophile and unless like the OP you receive one for free they are not worth the investment of $250-400 for a bottom model let alone $500-800 for a Super OEM model. With some educated shopping for the same money there are numerous preowned Japan made Technics tables available that far outshine the "clones" and can be called audiophile with specs and sound quality that earns the title.
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And then better tables from other companies like Yamaha, Kenwood etc for the same money as either.
 
The use of the term 'audiophile' in this context means nothing. Ask Herb Reichart whether he would consider the PLX-1000 a worthwhile turntable. You may not prefer the Super OEMs, nor the OEMs, but they are great value and usually perform well. Not everyone looking for a turntable in that style wants to work on an old, worn SL-1200, nor has the capacity to buy one of the new Technics models.

FWIW (probably nothing in the context of what we usually talk about here) PLENTY of DJs happily use Super OEMs in professional settings. The notion that they are grossly inferior is a fallacy. It gets tiring the chorus of unhelpful anti-Hanpin and anti-YaHorng commentary in audio forums. For the market segments they serve, they are often excellent choices for consumers.

Kit Carson said:
DavidTT in my opinion I don't consider any of the SL-1200 "clones" audiophile and unless like the OP you receive one for free they are not worth the investment of $250-400 for a bottom model let alone $500-800 for a Super OEM model. With some educated shopping for the same money there are numerous preowned Japan made Technics tables available that far outshine the "clones" and can be called audiophile with specs and sound quality that earns the title.
Click to expand...
 
DavidTT said:
The use of the term 'audiophile' in this context means nothing. Ask Herb Reichart whether he would consider the PLX-1000 a worthwhile turntable.
Click to expand...
"Pioneer's new PLX-1000 is not only a worthy successor to the legendary Technics SL-1200MK2, it is a serious contender for the best audiophile-grade turntable for less than $2000. Unabashedly recommended."
https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-4-page-2

I don't know anything about the OP's TT-1520, whether it's an OEM or a Super OEM or something else entirely, but I would happily accept oldman54's appraisal that it's a decent turntable when used with a cartridge that doesn't require super light tracking forces.

darklife said:
. . . Even the DJ AT cartridge didn't seem to do that from what I recall but I don't want to put 2.5 grams tracking force on my stuff . . .
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It was good to hear that your AT3600L is tracking cleanly at 2.5 grams for you. That is really not excessive for its conical stylus, and don't be afraid to experiment with even higher tracking forces to see if that might give even better tracking with some records. Mistracking presents a greater risk for record damage than does somewhat heavier tracking forces.

The AT3600L's recommended tracking force varies with the source: LP Gear says 2.5-3.5 grams, Music Hall says 3-4 grams (with 3 grams being their recommendation), and the only source I've seen directly from AT said 2.5-4.5 grams. I track mine at 3.5 grams, as did a friend of mine after experimenting with his Music Hall turntable; the AT rep I spoke with on the phone said their recommendation was 3.5 grams.

The AT3600L body can also accept ATN91 and ATN91R replacement styli, both of which have a lower 1.5-2.5 gram recommended vtf range, which still includes the sweet spot oldman54 mentioned for your tone arm. My friend with the Music Hall turntable ended up preferring the ATN91R, tracking it at 2.25 grams.
 
Ah yes, tracking force, another issue that gets distorted in discussions on audio forums. The venerable Shure SC35C tracked at 5 grams, and tracked smoothly with powerful, palpable bass and overall smooth response.

Hobbyists get used to hearing what can become an informal orthodoxy, i.e. cartridges should never track beyond 2 grams or so VTF, without broader knowledge and experience. Not many use conicals these days, but heavy-tracking conicals can sound fantastic when used appropriately.

Some of my favorite heavy duty rock and roll sound came from using a Shure SC35C with OEM conical, at 5g VTF, on a Pioneer PLX-1000. I have a Rega Planar 6 these days and love it, but if I swapped in another PLX-1000 with juicy conicals I have no doubt I'd be happy as a clam.
 
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