Are the Numark DDs really that terrible for audiophile?

[ernieb1536]

My last post fell of deaf ears it seems over my recent acquisition of a TT-1520.
Initial opinion was it looked like they cheaped out on some things like the plastic parts. The AT cartridge it came with was for DJing so I know it wasn't meant for audiophile use.

What I've done so far is replace the AT with a Shure 91ED.
Next up was flipping over the god awful bling of a felt mat. I prefer the black boring side rather than the hypnotic look of whatever that is.

The rumble from this thing picking up walking around was ridiculous and had me wanting to go back to my belt drive TT that is currently having issues.
I looked up the manual online for the Numark and noticed something I wonder if other owners picked up on? It explains that the feet are adjustable and when I adjusted mine I noticed they were screwed all the way in having plastic on plastic scrunched up instead of the cushion it should sit on when unscrewed factory tight.

Upon adjusting the feet to get the "spring" back with proper padding instead of the plastic sitting on itself there was a massive improvement in vibration issues which seems to be the common issue with DJs and these tables.

Anyone? Any people here own this? I know it's a DJ table but am trying to convert it to some sort of audiophile table.

I have a pl120 the older version of the lp120 often looked down upon but after a few tweaks I’ve been very happy with it updated to a sumiko gold pearl cartridge, better mat with an acrylic mat in between replaced the antiskate spring with the updated one from audio Technica sounds as quite as my Rotel belt drive better speed accuracy and it’s considered a cheap DJ table it’s my daily driver ! is there better yes but it would cost plenty to better it with a noticeable difference !

 

[jrtrent]

I have a pl120 the older version of the lp120 often looked down upon but after a few tweaks I’ve been very happy with it updated to a sumiko gold pearl cartridge, better mat with an acrylic mat in between replaced the antiskate spring with the updated one from audio Technica sounds as quite as my Rotel belt drive better speed accuracy and it’s considered a cheap DJ table it’s my daily driver ! is there better yes but it would cost plenty to better it with a noticeable difference !

Jeff Dorgay of Tone Audio once commented on the AT-PL120 saying:

"I bought this instead of an SL1200 for a couple of reasons.

A: Price, it was 1/3 the money.
B: It plays 78's
C: It actually had a more open sound than the SL1200 we
had in for review. Im sure it was a diff in cabling that
could be easily cured, but compared side by side, we
all preferred the sound of the AT..."

 

[radiokom]

Ah yes, tracking force, another issue that gets distorted in discussions on audio forums. The venerable Shure SC35C tracked at 5 grams, and tracked smoothly with powerful, palpable bass and overall smooth response.

Hobbyists get used to hearing what can become an informal orthodoxy, i.e. cartridges should never track beyond 2 grams or so VTF, without broader knowledge and experience. Not many use conicals these days, but heavy-tracking conicals can sound fantastic when used appropriately.

Some of my favorite heavy duty rock and roll sound came from using a Shure SC35C with OEM conical, at 5g VTF, on a Pioneer PLX-1000. I have a Rega Planar 6 these days and love it, but if I swapped in another PLX-1000 with juicy conicals I have no doubt I'd be happy as a clam.

Conicals simply can not fit in the groove at inner tracks no matter what tracking force. Of course better is more tracking force than less, because otherwise stylus will jump act as perforator. Generally I use Ortofon MC5000 with van den Hul tip (2x85 microne) @ recommended tracking force 2,5 grams. Because original Ortofon Nude replicant (r/R 5/100) was too big to correctly reproduce last tracks. You can read it at VDH papers.

Chapter 42 in attached document( Q: What is the relation between the shape of the stylus and the frequency range ?)

 

[DavidTT]

...and yet conicals have been widely used for decades. Some of the most famous and beloved carts use conicals styli, including (for example) the Denon DL-103 and Ortofon SPU-S. That there exist more advanced shapes isn't the argument. I currently use a fine line nude stylus but have happily listened to many records using conical tips. I've never heard rock and roll sound better than when listening to a dirt cheap Shure SC35C.

Conicals simply can not fit in the groove at inner tracks no matter what tracking force. Of course better is more tracking force than less, because otherwise stylus will jump act as perforator. Generally I use Ortofon MC5000 with van den Hul tip (2x85 microne) @ recommended tracking force 2,5 grams. Because original Ortofon Nude replicant (r/R 5/100) was too big to correctly reproduce last tracks. You can read it at VDH papers.

Chapter 42 in attached document( Q: What is the relation between the shape of the stylus and the frequency range ?)

 

[Kit Carson]

Looking on the bright side your fascination with the Numark Audio Technica and Pioneer tables built by Hanpin and Chinese mfgs will leave me a great number of superior Japan made turntables to choose from if I should ever want another one.

 

[stanwebber]

i've only ever had 1 experience with a 1200 clone and it was frustratingly awful. stay away from the sony ps-lx350h. the motor couldn't keep speed worth a damn (even when turned on for hours) and the arm and/or headshell somehow defied alignment with my protractors. no arm height adjustment either (headshell shims or stacked thin turntable mats to compensate), but that's probably to be expected on clones.

i don't know of the capabilities or excellence or lack thereof of any other 1200 clone, but i know the sony is the worst of them. you have been warned.

 

[ernieb1536]

i've only ever had 1 experience with a 1200 clone and it was frustratingly awful. stay away from the sony ps-lx350h. the motor couldn't keep speed worth a damn (even when turned on for hours) and the arm and/or headshell somehow defied alignment with my protractors. no arm height adjustment either (headshell shims or stacked thin turntable mats to compensate), but that's probably to be expected on clones.

i don't know of the capabilities or excellence or lack thereof of any other 1200 clone, but i know the sony is the worst of them. you have been warned.

The pl120 is decent unlike the lp120 does not have the usb stuff in the signal path ,speed deed on ,quiet motor , 2 things original antiskate spring needs replaced with the updated one if the antiskate does not work , second the vta goes higher but not quite low enough I fixed that with a thick rubber mat and the acrylic mat that I used to check the antiskate considering the modest investment I’m quite pleased with the results , like the start stop button , strong motor the hydraulic cue lift and over all performance table has a nice feel to it !

 

[Lavane]

"Pioneer's new PLX-1000 is not only a worthy successor to the legendary Technics SL-1200MK2, it is a serious contender for the best audiophile-grade turntable for less than $2000. Unabashedly recommended."
https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-4-page-2

I don't know anything about the OP's TT-1520, whether it's an OEM or a Super OEM or something else entirely, but I would happily accept oldman54's appraisal that it's a decent turntable when used with a cartridge that doesn't require super light tracking forces.


It was good to hear that your AT3600L is tracking cleanly at 2.5 grams for you. That is really not excessive for its conical stylus, and don't be afraid to experiment with even higher tracking forces to see if that might give even better tracking with some records. Mistracking presents a greater risk for record damage than does somewhat heavier tracking forces.

The AT3600L's recommended tracking force varies with the source: LP Gear says 2.5-3.5 grams, Music Hall says 3-4 grams (with 3 grams being their recommendation), and the only source I've seen directly from AT said 2.5-4.5 grams. I track mine at 3.5 grams, as did a friend of mine after experimenting with his Music Hall turntable; the AT rep I spoke with on the phone said their recommendation was 3.5 grams.

The AT3600L body can also accept ATN91 and ATN91R replacement styli, both of which have a lower 1.5-2.5 gram recommended vtf range, which still includes the sweet spot oldman54 mentioned for your tone arm. My friend with the Music Hall turntable ended up preferring the ATN91R, tracking it at 2.25 grams.

I chose the AT LP-1240 over the Pioneer PLX-1000. Partially due to getting a good price. But they are pretty similar though. The AT has a rubberized metal chassis and is pretty quiet.
I bought a AT3600L with the elliptical stylus LP gear sells. I also bought the conical stylus for it. I usually use a Nagaoka MP-110 with it though. I don't have any complaints for the price I payed.

 

[likebike23]

Ah yes, tracking force, another issue that gets distorted in discussions on audio forums. The venerable Shure SC35C tracked at 5 grams, and tracked smoothly with powerful, palpable bass and overall smooth response.

Hobbyists get used to hearing what can become an informal orthodoxy, i.e. cartridges should never track beyond 2 grams or so VTF, without broader knowledge and experience. Not many use conicals these days, but heavy-tracking conicals can sound fantastic when used appropriately.

Some of my favorite heavy duty rock and roll sound came from using a Shure SC35C with OEM conical, at 5g VTF, on a Pioneer PLX-1000. I have a Rega Planar 6 these days and love it, but if I swapped in another PLX-1000 with juicy conicals I have no doubt I'd be happy as a clam.

Save your breath, the dogma will not be challenged!

There is a well regarded vintage cartridge that there are no "high end" styli available for. Every now and then someone asks for a recommendation for a stylus and the answers make me laugh. If you do a little research you can find that there is a light tracking OEM conical that works well, but nobody ever recommends it. Instead they recommend one of the nude aftermarket when it is in no way like the original and changes the operation of the cartridge to a different operating principle.

I don't get the lengths people will go to to avoid a conical stylus. Changing the operating principle of the cart is obviously better than running an OEM conical .

 

[Lavane]

Save your breath, the dogma will not be challenged!

There is a well regarded vintage cartridge that there are no "high end" styli available for. Every now and then someone asks for a recommendation for a stylus and the answers make me laugh. If you do a little research you can find that there is a light tracking OEM conical that works well, but nobody ever recommends it. Instead they recommend one of the nude aftermarket when it is in no way like the original and changes the operation of the cartridge to a different operating principle.

I don't get the lengths people will go to to avoid a conical stylus. Changing the operating principle of the cart is obviously better than running an OEM conical .

I bought the conical for the AT3600L when I bout the cartridge with the elliptical stylus on it. The conical does get more use on that cartridge over the elliptical.

 

[Kit Carson]

Wondering way off subject, OP is a professional DJ at a radio station and wanted to know if his Numark was up to the task for broadcasting. I wholeheartedly agree with Kent T that at a minimum he should be looking at a Technics SL-1100/1200, Mk2 and the SP-15/25/10Mk2 pro tables that meet NAB standards. Keep in mind this could impact his career, gain/lose audience and advertisers if it turns out poorly or is a success.

 

[DavidTT]

Nope. I think you inferred that but you might want to go back and read the thread from the first post. He said that nowhere. I think this is a personal TT he's trying to make sound as good as possible.

Wondering way off subject, OP is a professional DJ at a radio station and wanted to know if his Numark was up to the task for broadcasting. I wholeheartedly agree with Kent T that at a minimum he should be looking at a Technics SL-1100/1200, Mk2 and the SP-15/25/10Mk2 pro tables that meet NAB standards. Keep in mind this could impact his career, gain/lose audience and advertisers if it turns out poorly or is a success.

 

[stanwebber]

i have several light tracking t4p cartridges where conical styli were the only available option. they can pull some surprising detail from well-played records that presumably have only been touched/molested by elipticals. likewise, one of my favorite elipticals is an audio technica .4 x .7mil with a special polish. it seems to track virgin vinyl even on records in relatively good shape. now that i think about it i tend to like .2 x .7 nude elipticals over bonded line contact profiles.

 

[radiokom]

Look at this:

 

[darklife]

Wondering way off subject, OP is a professional DJ at a radio station and wanted to know if his Numark was up to the task for broadcasting. I wholeheartedly agree with Kent T that at a minimum he should be looking at a Technics SL-1100/1200, Mk2 and the SP-15/25/10Mk2 pro tables that meet NAB standards. Keep in mind this could impact his career, gain/lose audience and advertisers if it turns out poorly or is a success.

Never said I did it on a pro level. It's more of a webcast plus small audience pirate local show so not at all worried about advertisers or the like and haven't ran the show in a while anyway, just nice to know this table will be more fitting for that use over a high end belt drive one because of the fast start/stop and back cue ability.

My desk mixer already has the RIAA compensation built in so proper EQ is not an issue. Shielded cabling is far more of an issue because of RF interference but luckily the Numark allows cables to be changed out and I have some nicely shielded RCA cables that show around 150pf of "open" capacitance on my digital multimeter which when combined with the mixer/preamp capacitance is about what the cartridges want to see for best sound reproduction.
I can always plug directly into my NAD 7140 stereos phono inputs too if I want something a little more precise for casual listening.

If I were working in a professional studio I wouldn't be using my own equipment anyway and most stations do still have 1200s laying around but very few actually run vinyl shows other than local college stations in my experience.

Much of my listening with this will be for personal use and general rocking out. The radio show stuff is mostly a side hobby but thanks for the concerns since it could be valuable information for anyone else wanting to use one of these in a professional environment.

 

[darklife]

I think this is a personal TT he's trying to make sound as good as possible.

Yup. Just seeing what all can be done to it to get the most out of it, be that enjoyment and sound quality. The thought that I could
use it for music shows to present cool record finds to share with others is just a bonus as it's not a paid gig, just hobbyist stuff.

 

[radiokom]

Yup. Just seeing what all can be done to it to get the most out of it, be that enjoyment and sound quality. The thought that I could
use it for music shows to present cool record finds to share with others is just a bonus as it's not a paid gig, just hobbyist stuff.

Well, if hobby, find used Technics 1200 MK2 and repair/upgrade (if you are in US, you are lucky because you can contact Kevin Barret from KAB and repair/upgrade anything). I am not familiar with your table, but I bought Dual dtj 301.1 for my daughter as a gift (her first table), of course I replaced original AT cartridge with conical stylus with Ortofon OM10 with elliptical and mat with Technics 1200 thin mat. I believe it is the same egg, only in profile. For the first table it is OK, but otherwise - plastic crap, however works acceptable. My advise - if you are happy with it, use it as is. Do not try to upgrade it, because it is money for nothing. Find Technics if you are serious. There are no unrepairable Technics 1200, they are Revox B77, but in turntables .

 

[likebike23]

If you plan on using this for DJ'ing and back cueing then you should probably get a heavier tracking conical stylus.

 

[losthorizon]

I have just obtained an AT Sl lp 120 that is a non-runner, so I have another project to work on, can anyone out there that owns one please give me an honest opinion on what they are like?

 

[Kit Carson]

lostharizon if you want to fish at the bottom of the turntable ocean the AT is an option, personally I wouldn't waste my time energy and money on one, much better fish to catch. Nerver owned and never will own one.