AT-LP120 and Technics Sl-1200 MK2

[RamblinE]

I'll admit I went right to the line with my comments that were not in the spirit of AK, my apology to all. What got me riled up enough to make those comments was that IMO someone new or returning to turntables their first stop would be very likly Amazon. A budget in the neighborhood of $200 would give them a few choices includeing the AT LP120 and the Music Hall USB1. I checked out the Amazon reviews on both of these turntables and the rateings appeared to be pretty equal. What got me going was that the OP compared the LP120 to a preowned/used Technics SL1200Mk2 which IMO would not of been a consideration by an Amazon shopper new or returning to turntables. If the OP had done a comparison between these two, the AT and Music Hall, which to me fit the criteria of what a new/returning turntable purchaser would likly buy this thread would never have been as controvesial/heated as it turned out to be.

While I do see what you're saying I see acrorob's little test culminating in this: Even if you don't have enough money to buy a Technics SL1200 you might still be able to get something that will perform well in comparison to it. That's it, no giant killing. The comparison to the USB-1 would be interesting though because while it does look similar it's a belt-drive with a very widely documented record of speed problems from various sources.

 

[arcorob]

You get it

While I do see what you're saying I see acrorob's little test culminating in this: Even if you don't have enough money to buy a Technics SL1200 you might still be able to get something that will perform well in comparison to it. That's it, no giant killing. The comparison to the USB-1 would be interesting though because while it does look similar it's a belt-drive with a very widely documented record of speed problems from various sources.

exactly...

Even if you don't have enough money to buy a Technics SL1200 you might still be able to get something that will perform well in comparison to it

 

[arcorob]

Not looking to argue

I'll admit I went right to the line with my comments that were not in the spirit of AK, my apology to all. What got me riled up enough to make those comments was that IMO someone new or returning to turntables their first stop would be very likly Amazon. A budget in the neighborhood of $200 would give them a few choices includeing the AT LP120 and the Music Hall USB1. I checked out the Amazon reviews on both of these turntables and the rateings appeared to be pretty equal. What got me going was that the OP compared the LP120 to a preowned/used Technics SL1200Mk2 which IMO would not of been a consideration by an Amazon shopper new or returning to turntables. If the OP had done a comparison between these two, the AT and Music Hall, which to me fit the criteria of what a new/returning turntable purchaser would likly buy this thread would never have been as controvesial/heated as it turned out to be.

But that was more of an excuse than a apology. You said apology then immediately found reasons to transfer blame for your actions.

Man up.

 

[BrocLuno]

Didn't know you live so close ! I work in Redmond, live in Snohomish..small world

I used to work as an ET (Engineering Tech, including electronics) for NOAA (Lake Union and Sand Point). Been in and around Seattle a fair bit. Love the north country (green/green, gray/gray ). That job was after the Army and working as a tech for GRT/Chess/Janus Records, back in the day.

Great audio and classic stereo scene in, and around Seattle. We get up that way every few years. Drop a PM and maybe we'll come by if possible...

Is this maybe a west coast / east coast thinking way of looking at the issues? If it is, it would make sense to me

 

[arcorob]

Doors open to you...

I used to work as an ET (Engineering Tech, including electronics) for NOAA (Lake Union and Sand Point). Been in and around Seattle a fair bit. Love the north country (green/green, gray/gray ). That job was after the Army and working as a tech for GRT/Chess/Janus Records, back in the day.

Great audio and classic stereo scene in, and around Seattle. We get up that way every few years. Drop a PM and maybe we'll come by if possible...

Is this maybe a west coast / east coast thinking way of looking at the issues? If it is, it would make sense to me

Just PM me ahead of time...LOL

Don't think its East Coast / West Coast because I do live here, but grew up (um does 47 years count) in NY...Been in this peaceful land for 6 years now...LOve it...I can still have the NY bite,...but now I just take a leg...LOL

 

[Stacker45]

What are those middling Marantz turntables of yours made of?

Wood, why?

Reading the last few pages, i came across this comment ''name calling will not be tolerated'', but i guess that this doesn't apply when the target is an SL-1200 owner, and the name calling is ''fanboy''.

I'd be willing to bet that if some Chinese company came out with a cheap Rega RP3 imitation and someone did a comparison with the ''real'' RP3, we might discover a whole new flock of Rega enthusiast willing to go to great lenth to defend their beloved turnable.

Funny thing, i seem to remember a few Travelers threads that got closed when some VPI enthusiast ran out of excuses to justify all the problems VPI was having with their newest entry.

I might be wrong on all counts here, but that's my opinion.

 

[JohnVF]

Once you get one you'll be hooked...serious..When I first saw them, I thought - Old school...but the freaking engineering is awesome.

I don't want to ruffle Dual feathers but my preference is the direct drive 701, 721 or 604. 721 is my favorite and the reason I went for it was their top of the line motor and double anti resonance arm

They are also a suspended table in that they sit in their base on springs so its sort of decoupled from base vibrations....

The only thing BAD I can say about the duals is their headshell sled. Instead of a normal headshell with a screw colllet they use a sled. You mount the cart to the sled attach the wires there, then insert the sled and slide the cue lift handle forward to lock in place. Easy right ? well, it could be but 1) Makes it a bitch to align and 2) sometimes you get bad connection on the sled to the contacts - they need to be clean

Its not as bad as I make it sound, just being forthright. I eliminate that issue. Rewired my arm and put normal leads on the end. Then took the back of the sled off so I get more of a connection like an arm without a detachable headshell.

Pictures ! My 721 original and then when I modded - and some other Duals I have bought and sold to good appreciative homes
[/IMG]

Thanks for the extra detail regarding the Dual direct drives. There will be one in my future. I'm not sure when...I got my VPI back up and running today and couldn't be happier with the sound, but I like what I see in the Dual literature now that I can see underneath the exterior (and I really like that base you made, its really great looking and really adds to the look of the table). I'm almost positive the Dual that I passed up for $40 a while back was one of the direct drives. I had 12 or 13 tables at the time and it just didn't look worth adding another one for. I'm wishing I had but hey, I'll find one. I have a lot of contacts here in Chicago that have turntables all over the place, and I like buying them locally.

I have some of the sleds already, I think, they came in a box of cart bodies I bought.

If you ever feel like playing with something different, I highly recommend the Mitsubishi Linear Tracking tables. Lt-20, 22 and 30. The 20 and 22 are a lot more common than the 30 and don't look as nice but don't give up a whole lot sonically. The 30 is a fantastic machine.

 

[BrocLuno]

If you can scroe a DUAL direct drive, by all means proceed

 

[Pio1980]

If you can scroe a DUAL direct drive, by all means proceed

Strongly considering it tho' my present main table is a Mitz LT-30 and it's secondary a reworked Pioneer Pl-L1000.

 

[BrocLuno]

Well, starting from that place - it's a definite maybe. You're already there with what you have. It would be a sideways jump, at best :scratch2:

 

[majick47]

If people are looking to purchase a new turntable in the $200 range the AT LP120 and Project USB1 are likly choices and the comparison should of been made between those two or any other new turntable close to that price. I thought the intent was having a good turntable at that price point to recommend to someone new to turntables who would not be able to cope with even minor issues that might arise with a used turntable. This is why I feel the SL1200Mk2 wasn't appropriate to bring into any comparison since it is used, might need minor maintenance and way off the target price. It's like going to a car dealer saying your looking for a inexspensive compact car and the salesman starts showing you full size Mercedes and BMWs. If it was done as I'm suggesting there would of been little liklyhood of heated discussion and a very good chance that out of an apples to apples comparison the winner could very likly been the LP120.

 

[JohnVF]

If people are looking to purchase a new turntable in the $200 range the AT LP120 and Project USB1 are likly choices and the comparison should of been made between those two or any other new turntable close to that price. I thought the intent was having a good turntable at that price point to recommend to someone new to turntables who would not be able to cope with even minor issues that might arise with a used turntable. This is why I feel the SL1200Mk2 wasn't appropriate to bring into any comparison since it is used, might need minor maintenance and way off the target price. It's like going to a car dealer saying your looking for a inexspensive compact car and the salesman starts showing you full size Mercedes and BMWs. If it was done as I'm suggesting there would of been little liklyhood of heated discussion and a very good chance that out of an apples to apples comparison the winner could very likly been the LP120.

Then do it yourself or ignore the thread.

 

[JohnVF]

Well, starting from that place - it's a definite maybe. You're already there with what you have. It would be a sideways jump, at best :scratch2:

Can't speak for Pio1980 but my interest isn't in making a leap. I doubt it would be an improvement over the LT-30 that I have, the Well Tempered or the VPI. But it would be something different, and of quality,that doesn't seem like it would be too expensive. I think my V-15vmr would be a good match for that arm, too. And therefor, it all sounds like fun. I like playing with different tables, and am not worried about getting the best. I will just wait until I find one at a decent price. I'm sure one will turn up.

 

[Bob_in_OKC]

What are those middling Marantz turntables of yours made of?

Wood, why?

...snipping for clarity...

You're kidding, right? The wood is approximately the thickness of paper. This 6300 is particle board.

 

[arcorob]

And if you DO get one

Can't speak for Pio1980 but my interest isn't in making a leap. I doubt it would be an improvement over the LT-30 that I have, the Well Tempered or the VPI. But it would be something different, and of quality,that doesn't seem like it would be too expensive. I think my V-15vmr would be a good match for that arm, too. And therefor, it all sounds like fun. I like playing with different tables, and am not worried about getting the best. I will just wait until I find one at a decent price. I'm sure one will turn up.

I would be more than happy to give you hits, tips and the simplest mod..that being, rewire the arm with litz wire..easiest job you could imagine and so worth it...not that duals have bad wires (they don't) ..I just hate those dang sled connections...

 

[JohnVF]

I would be more than happy to give you hits, tips and the simplest mod..that being, rewire the arm with litz wire..easiest job you could imagine and so worth it...not that duals have bad wires (they don't) ..I just hate those dang sled connections...

If I get one I will take you up on that offer. I could probably handle the re-wire with a little advice along the way, and certainly would love to get rid of the sled. One of my Empires has a sled, I don't particularly care for it.

 

[grottyash]

But that was more of an excuse than a apology. You said apology then immediately found reasons to transfer blame for your actions.

Man up.

I thought it a decent apology which was given with good grace. Edit: having read yours on the Orbit thread, I think it' a case of glass houses .

Besides, the man has a point: if it didn't look like a Technics, would you (or anyone else) have bothered to make a comparison with one? Let's face it, what we've all demonstrated here is how successful AT's marketing strategy has been.

On a less rancourous matter, is the Dual 1019 a decent deck?

 

[Fisherdude]

If people are looking to purchase a new turntable in the $200 range the AT LP120 and Project USB1 are likly choices and the comparison should of been made between those two or any other new turntable close to that price. I thought the intent was having a good turntable at that price point to recommend to someone new to turntables who would not be able to cope with even minor issues that might arise with a used turntable. This is why I feel the SL1200Mk2 wasn't appropriate to bring into any comparison since it is used, might need minor maintenance and way off the target price. It's like going to a car dealer saying your looking for a inexspensive compact car and the salesman starts showing you full size Mercedes and BMWs. If it was done as I'm suggesting there would of been little liklyhood of heated discussion and a very good chance that out of an apples to apples comparison the winner could very likly been the LP120.

First, thanks for continuing your participation in this thread in a more positive tone. It is noted, and sincerely appreciated.

However, it appears that you still don't understand the point of the original comparison, and the point of the thread. The intention was NOT to compare two comparable turntables.

The point was to compare a brand new $25,000 Maza Miata with a vintage $100,000 Corvette Stingray for the benefit of someone who is looking for a sports car. The point was to compare the pros and cons of each, what you get with the Vette for the additional cost, what you give up with the Mazda for the reduced cost, and the final opinion, that if the Mazda gives you 2/3 of the fun for 1/4 of the cost, and you want a sports car but you don't "have to have" a Corvette, then the Mazda is a wonderful alternative.

The point was NOT to figure out which is "better", just to compare strengths and weaknesses in relation to price.

 

[Pio1980]

Can't speak for Pio1980 but my interest isn't in making a leap. I doubt it would be an improvement over the LT-30 that I have, the Well Tempered or the VPI. But it would be something different, and of quality,that doesn't seem like it would be too expensive. I think my V-15vmr would be a good match for that arm, too. And therefor, it all sounds like fun. I like playing with different tables, and am not worried about getting the best. I will just wait until I find one at a decent price. I'm sure one will turn up.

From what I've read I can't say that the Goldmund Studio would be a definite upgrade from the Big Mitz LT-30, much less anything else similar tho' I have great curiosity on a fully kitted-out Yamaha GT-2000, perhaps in another lifetime.. At this time the LT-30 is my touch-stone standard of sonic neutrality.
What the Dual DD has going for it is the marvellous pancake spindle motor along with good build and finish. Against, mainly the stamp-formed sheet steel baseplate which may probably be improved treating it as do the Lenco mods. I'd likely succumb to finding a 701 or 721 for such a 'someday' project now that I'm done fooling with the H-K suspended belt drives tho' the PL-L1000 still has a couple possible belly pan upgrades coming and I am a linear tracking advocate..

 

[Pio1980]

I thought it a decent apology which was given with good grace. Edit: having read yours on the Orbit thread, I think it' a case of glass houses .

Besides, the man has a point: if it didn't look like a Technics, would you (or anyone else) have bothered to make a comparison with one? Let's face it, what we've all demonstrated here is how successful AT's marketing strategy has been.

On a less rancourous matter, is the Dual 1019 a decent deck?

The Techie was the obvious comparison standard and a 'known' one. That the A-T wasn't humiliated by it is good info for a prospective recommendation for the typical entry level purchaser with limited resources.
Re the Dual 1019, some consider it the best-of-type ever along with the TOTL ELAC stacker/changers.