AT95e why does everyone love this?

[marcmorin]

my initial question has been answered. Their is a large market for the 95 from people who don't want to spend more than $50 and then convince themselves its pure awesome.

Now the punch bowl is empty, the foods all gone .. stepping away, closing the door, turning out the lights .....

my initial question has been answered. Their (THERE) is a large market for the 95 from people who don't want to spend more than $50( , ) and then convince themselves its ( IT'S) pure awesome.

Now the punch bowl is empty, the foods all gone .. stepping away, closing the door, turning out the lights .....finding a dictionary

 

[janikphoto]

my initial question has been answered. Their is a large market for the 95 from people who don't want to spend more than $50 and then convince themselves its pure awesome...

And, a lot of people think the Ford Mustang is a good price and pure awesome. It is, for the price point, I suppose. With this being said, I was surprised by the sound from the cart... not my favorite cart in the house, but I was still surprised! I listened to it blind, not knowing which cart it was, so it's not like I was biased.

 

[hifitommy]

there are worse things for more than 50 bucks.

 

[beej]

Do the 3400 and 95 have the same generator?
neo

In my opinion they are but apparently opinions vary on this. Here are my resistance/inductance measurements on the 3400 body on which I've mounted the AT95HE stylus:

Res R/L 411/411
Ind R/L 436/431

Be interested in learning what the measurements are on a AT95e body.

 

[neobop]

In my opinion they are but apparently opinions vary on this. Here are my resistance/inductance measurements on the 3400 body on which I've mounted the AT95HE stylus:

Res R/L 411/411
Ind R/L 436/431

Be interested in learning what the measurements are on a AT95e body.

That is interesting. The VE database lists the 3400 at 5mV. The 95 is 3.5mV.

The 95 is 400mH, 2800 ohms impedance. I measured 409 ohm DCR on one channel. Seems like a bit higher inductance accounts for a lot more output.
I wonder if 5mV is right.
neo

 

[gusten]

In my opinion they are but apparently opinions vary on this. Here are my resistance/inductance measurements on the 3400 body on which I've mounted the AT95HE stylus:

Res R/L 411/411
Ind R/L 436/431

Be interested in learning what the measurements are on a AT95e body.

Mines are about the same figures, I haven´t measured any AT95, but the specs are; R=410, L=400. I would presume they are the same with no intentional difference.

 

[dlaloum]

The at70 series also share the same core.... But the back of the stylus insert plug varies just enough to make swapping difficult...

 

[neobop]

Those coils might be within 10%, but apparently there's enough difference to say they're not the same. I doubt if any of these budget carts have stronger magnets. The AT70 looks to be the same as the 95, but I don't know all the specs. The 3600 has 5.3mV out. Is that the same too?
http://www.lpgear.com/product/ATC17.html

Maybe some of this info is wrong, but it's all we've got for now.
neo

 

[dlaloum]

AT71e 422ohm 449mH...

Most of the AT95/92 that I have measured tend to be 408Ohm and 420mH
But I have one AT95 body at 384ohm and 426mH, and a DR250 (AT92) with 395ohm and 457mH

Range seems to go from 384ohm to 425ohm (one outlier is an AT95, the other an AT92 type) and from 420mH to 465mH (both outliers are the p-mount AT92/213 stylus models)

I've measured 11 AT95/92 type bodies, but only one AT71... - which happens to sit well within the range shown by the AT95/92 bodies.

I think the focus on V output is a red herring - V out can be varied by altering the magnet material (a more magnetically dense/powerful material will provide higher output at the same magnet size/mass), or by altering magnet size (larger/heavier = higher output).
It may even be a matter of altering the concentration of magnetic material in the alloy when it is made - in which case at the same mass and size there could be a range of possible V output levels.

Someone with more knowledge of electro magnetics would need to pipe up to confirm this, but I would have thought that at a certain fixed resistance and inductance, the only variable left to us is the magnetic field strength?

Differing coil wire materials would not alter the V out, and differing coil numbers or length would alter inductance and resistance.... which rules out variation in the coils... (?)

Another possibility might be a change in geometry / pivot point of the cantilever, moving the magnets further from the centre would cause them to move further - generating higher voltage (at the cost of increased effective mass) - but I cannot see how that would be achieved given the format of the AT styli...

bye for now

David

 

[neobop]

Hmmm,
There's too much we don't know. 95 inductance is spec 400mH. These coils are wound on a machine and I would think tolerance/accuracy is tight.

If I'm not mistaken inductance is measured at 1KHz, could this be the discrepancy?

I'm sure magnet strength can be varied, but put stronger magnets in the least expensive models? Maybe they're just slightly larger - more bang for your buck with entry level?

AT seems to have phased out the stronger magnets that differentiated the 440 OCC from the 440MLa. Clearaudio V2 had higher output for a minute and now back to old output spec. Perhaps AT specs are more vague than I realized?
neo

 

[lini]

Have you guys ruled out deviating references already - i.e. all specs @ 5 cm/s?

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

P.S.: And another idea could be slight differences in pole piece shape or arrangement, 'cause one could imagine that a smaller gap between magnet and "sensor" would also cause an increase in output level...

 

[luckydog]

I should say that I have much respect for the AT95e and variants, which I have used extensively for testing over the years, and in some setups for listening on and off. It is bona fide, and has much history to back it, so long may it live IMO !

In case it somehow helps (?!) deliberations here's my 2p worth on how output varies with inductance in theory as I understand it, for a cart arrangement like the AT95e. Cartridge output roughly varies with square root of inductance. So even if inductance varies by say, 5% from nominal, then output would vary by only c 2.5% or so. Which is about 0.2dB or so, hardly worth getting excited about in my book !

As to resistance, that can simply vary with the length of the coil wire and with the spec of the wire itself. Length can depend on how the coil is wound without affecting inductance or output. The wire itself can vary in resistance without affecting cart output or inductance. So I wouldn't read too much into the exact measurement, personally, and even an exact channel match on resistance need not mean inductance or output are exactly matched, as I see it !

As ever, just my 2p worth and just my own opinions.

And AT95e should be in the hall of fame IMO !

 

[dlaloum]

One more thing, I believe that eddy current and hysteresis losses are level sensitive, and therefore a lower output v setup would be.more linear.

But at the budget end of the market, higher v can be interpreted as better sound.

So there may be a tension between marketing and engineering leading to v out spec varying over time...

 

[hifitommy]

i think some duane EDDY would make the current go up.

 

[bobins08]

... and to think all this technical analysis came from "I hate the AT95e".

Could this be the thread of the year?

 

[hifitommy]

probably not

 

[luckydog]

One more thing, I believe that eddy current and hysteresis losses are level sensitive, and therefore a lower output v setup would be.more linear.

That brings back memories, I used an AT95e to try to investigate such things a few years back. I didn't get to an understanding at the time. A good time later, I figured it out at least in theory and to my own satisfaction. Seems such losses can depend on cartridge output slew rate, in principle. That is to say, resembling stylus acceleration in effect. And so can be dependant on level and frequency with interaction between them. However, IIRC, such effects didn't show up for me in AT95e in real playback tests, not least because real recordings typically don't appear to have recorded accelerations to make the effect significant in this case, I reckoned. In this respect, the AT95e seemed to come out well again, IMO and if memory serves.

Anyways, don't mean to drag this into deep techy stuff, just that I thought you might be interested, dl, and you did mention it !

Viva la AT95e !

Just my opinions and 2p worth as ever.

 

[dlaloum]

The at95 also seems to have laminated pole pieces which would reduce these effects... Cheapest laminated core body that I know of!

 

[neobop]

Have you guys ruled out deviating references already - i.e. all specs @ 5 cm/s?

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

P.S.: And another idea could be slight differences in pole piece shape or arrangement, 'cause one could imagine that a smaller gap between magnet and "sensor" would also cause an increase in output level...

Hi Lini,
I don't know about deviating from standard velocity, but there seem to be discrepancies, or possibly different versions of a model. It's hard to find confirming specs on the 3400, but the 3600 is listed as both 4.2mV and 5.3mV.
Is this a resurrection of a discontinued version?
http://www.lpgear.com/product/ATC17.html

It looks like it has a 3400 stylus w carbon cantilever. Maybe output spec is a mistake? Here it is again with a yellow stylus holder and 4.2mV:
http://www.turntableneedles.com/Cartridge-AT3600CF_p_690.html

BTW, I tried a 3400 carbon/conical stylus on my 95. Results were disappointing. Perhaps I didn't give it enough time.
neo

 

[luckydog]

The at95 also seems to have laminated pole pieces which would reduce these effects... Cheapest laminated core body that I know of!

Nice. If I ever knew that I'd forgotten, but that perhaps explains a lot and helps tie up some loose ends for me ! Thanks DL. Viva la AT95e