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Audio and Philosophy

Bottom line - IMO

The hobby of “hi-fi” has many facets. Different people bring different perspectives, goals, priorities, and preferences to the hobby. This leads to different people having different “philosophies” about what it means to be an audiophile.

Here’s the opinion that I most wish to convey in my long ramble: IMO, it makes more sense for an audiophile to focus on their goals for their hi-fi system(s) and how well their systems are meeting their goals, vs. worrying about someone else’s definition of “accuracy” or “transparency” or “high fidelity reproduction” – or “The Quest for Absolute Sound”.

IOW, I believe that each audiophile should enjoy the hobby as they wish – i.e., whatever approach causes them the most pleasure.

That’s my 2.5 cents.

Respectfully,

Robert

The distinction between hobbyists and commercial interest can be found in the level of tolerance afforded to other viewpoints. Hobbyists tend to celebrate fellow hobbyists "aha" discoveries. Although personal preference and gear will differ, the common thread that binds them is the love of sound. Persons with commercial interest must sow discord and dissatisfaction in order to trigger a buy reaction. They hope to bend opinion towards their product by lecturing potential customers about what they are missing and about what they are doing wrong. They are intolerant of any viewpoint or preference that differs from what their product offers. It's not hard to spot them. There are always commercial influencers in any public forum.
 
My philosophy is that this is a "suit yourself" hobby, so I ultimately belong in the subjectivist "musicality" camp. However, I believe that the fastest way to musicality passes through high-fidelity first. I have an unusual, reference-less method of determining fidelity, all by my lonesome: If I can hear more, it's better. This has not led me astray, so far.

I'm a minimalist. I believe that the best you can do with an audio signal is not damage it, and that is difficult enough. I have fairly holographic 3-D imaging with my current system, which I realize is an artifact of stereo sound reproduction, not a natural concert characteristic. Nevertheless, I value the separation, as it helps me follow individual contributions to the musical whole while listening.

After living with a magnetic passive preamp and the electrostatic Quads, I hear a fair amount of differences between amplifiers, and I think real clarity is relatively rare. Perhaps part of my experience is due to the Quads' unusual load, but to me "meh" amps are pretty common. Tubes powered my system at its best, but haven't proved reliable enough (for me). Although I think chip amps can sound amazing, right now I'm on a 12 watt class A solid state design, and if that's settling, I'm still smiling. :)
 
My philosophy is that this is a "suit yourself" hobby...I have an unusual, reference-less method of determining fidelity, all by my lonesome...

The answer to what sounds good is always found within oneself. It is the matching of gear to personal preference. Anything at any price point can satisfy personal preference and therefore can be regarded as audiophile. This is why money is not a key to enjoyment. If someone is trying to define your personal preference for you, he is likely a salesman with a commercial agenda.
 
My off-the-cuff responses to a couple of the points in the video:

Gear Fetishism exists. However, I think the most common reason for audiophiles to largely ignore rooms and treatments is much simpler and doesn't require a degree in philosophy to understand. 1 - The hope for an easy score. It's just easier to buy a new thingamajig that you can plug in and voila! - different sound! (maybe better, maybe not). Acoustics is too much work, and it's HARD to get it right. But more important, many of us live with other people. If we've received approval, or at least tolerance, of our gear from our spouse, we beam and brag in forums like this one. But changing a room? Adding acoustic panels, etc.? That's a much harder sell.

Realism vs. Constructivism - as a studio engineer, I was taught both. First, I learned that the goal was accurate reproduction. But later I learned (more by experience) that in some cases the engineer is as much a part of the band as any of the folks playing instruments. So when I enter a session, the first thing I think about is what my role is. That is usually, but not always, defined by the genre. A good engineer and producer should meet with the artists before beginning a project and determine how much artistic input is required or desired from them. Sometimes the recording process is part of the music-making. But I'm still mulling over how this applies to the repro end of the chain. Thanks for the prompt!
 
Some interesting points brought up...

As far as the ultimate sound being something that sounds most like instruments live in a room: I don't necessarily buy into that as I'd say that the vast majority of music out there isn't made in anything like a "live in a room" situation and in fact isn't even designed to sound like it might be. Of course there's really no saying about what an electric or electronic instrument really sounds like, because you're introducing the element of an amp and likely lots of signal processing (or sounds that are 100% synthesized). Because I play drums, I probably have a better ear for that, but I can say that drums, the one acoustic instrument that's in most popular music, still doesn't sound very much like what drums "in a room" sound like on the vast majority of recordings. The way drums are miced (and what types of mics were used), the way that they are mixed and processed all create the resulting sound, not just the instrument or even the player. This is really why the drums sound so much different on say a Tom Petty Album than one by Led Zep. There were conscious choices to shape the sound to fit the vibe of the music and any idea of naturism was really far down on the list of priorities. All that being said I wonder if most of us would agree that a Led Zep or Tom Petty album really sounds better on a system that's tailored for faithfully reproducing acoustic performances that have been recorded all together in a room? Since the Zep/Tom Petty/other popular music wasn't really designed to sound like a live performance in the first place it doesn't seem so important to have any kind of perfectly faithful reproduction (there's not real benchmark in this case for what that would be). Maybe that music, at least for a lot of us, sounds better on a system that has some of a certain kind of coloration..?

I see that the relative artificiality of so many recordings isn't something that's talked about much here. I figure that these sort of records are just designed to conjure up a unique world, rather than duplicate a world that follows the same kind of acoustical principles that we hear in when we're listening to live music. The recording process then isn't just capturing the performance, but is an integral part of it. I like to listen to jazz recordings (and some classical, folk, etc) that really do a good job of recreating the "in the room" experience, but at the same time, I think that there are really beautifully recorded albums that have none of that... and obviously aren't even trying to; I enjoy them both.

As for another part of what was being said, that the room acoustics may be the less sexy side of the audiophile experience, but is as important as the gear, I'll say that I'm guilty of these kind of misplaced priorities. I guess that if I had some kind of very expensive system that I'd feel more guilty about not really having the acoustics sorted out. With my small house, which only has one large living room-like space, I'm kind of stuck dealing with what I've got as far as acoustics. With the particular configuration of doors, windows, built-in shelves, racks of books, records, CDs, etc that I own, as well as the TV, furniture and artwork that I insist on having to make the space comfortable to me, I feel like I have my stereo set up about as good as I can acoustics-wise. I might have said to myself that if I can't really do the acoustics right, I may was well just listen to a Bluetooth speaker on my coffee table, but as imperfect as my setup is, I know that it still sounds exponentially better than that, so I don't feel like I'm wasting any kind of opportunity...
 
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robert_kc - You have a lot to say and get off your chest and I appreciate that. It sounds to me that you have been bottling things up for a while and you are letting go and that's good in a constructive way. I really liked this- you said : "I regard my hi-fi systems as being “dialed in” when I completely forget about the equipment, and lose track of time, and become completely engrossed in the music, and I can listen for hours without “listener fatigue”. I regard my hi-fi systems as being “dialed in” when I feel like I’m in the symphony hall, or opera house (or other venue for chamber music, such as a church)" that's my goal as well and it has been a life long journey somewhat impeded by limited funds but I keep trying! I'm well into my seventh decade on this wonderful earth. So much beautiful music to be discovered!
 
An interesting video that asks some pertinent questions. However, there's a huge mistake (in my opinion), and that is the talk of "the original performance" from about 15.20. The video shows pictures of orchestras at this point, and that illustrates one type of music where there's definitely a performance which can be recorded, but much of the music which people listen to isn't a recording of a live musical event at all. It's been possible for a long time to construct a recording in a studio (or several different studios) by overdubbing, creating electronic sounds, manipulating sounds in unusual ways etc. etc. Take the famous Pet Sounds by the Beach Boys as an example. It was recorded over a period of months in several studios, so does talking about "the original performance" make any sense? Should the album be dismissed as of no musical merit because it is somehow a fake musical performance? Would it have been possible to record it as a single, live performance? In the years since then, building a recording piece by piece has become common practice and arguably essential for certain types of music.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that "the original performance" is applicable to some types of music, but not all. However, that doesn't mean that "transparency" is a non-requirement when listening to music which has been assembled in a studio. A system which screws up a recording of a live performance will also screw up a studio recording.
Live orchestral music is rarely unmodified these days. Many new concert halls and refurbished old ones employ systems like the Meyer Constellation to "improve" the sound.
An abomination in my opinion, but a battle that's impossible to win, especially as many Music Directors/conductors embrace it not just willingly, but enthusiastically.
Even halls that are primarily for chamber music are now doing it.
 
Live orchestral music is rarely unmodified these days. Many new concert halls and refurbished old ones employ systems like the Meyer Constellation to "improve" the sound.
An abomination in my opinion, but a battle that's impossible to win, especially as many Music Directors/conductors embrace it not just willingly, but enthusiastically.
Even halls that are primarily for chamber music are now doing it.

I’m fortunate, because my local symphony hall (built 10 years ago) has world-class acoustics. When my local symphony orchestra performs its Classical Music series, there is NO use of a sound reinforcement system. I confirmed this with the symphony’s Executive Director. The symphony’s Executive Director told me that the microphones that can be seen hanging above the stage are used solely for recording, NOT for amplifying the sound in the symphony hall when they perform the Classical Music series. The natural sound is amazing.

(A separate “Pop Series” of concerts that involve orchestra musicians is a different story. And occasional outdoor concerts (e.g., Memorial Day) are a different story.)

I strongly encourage every music lover – even if you think that you don’t like classical music – at least once in your life – hear a large-scale classical composition performed by a high-quality orchestra in a high-quality symphony hall, where the sound is 100% natural (i.e., no use of electronics - no use of a sound reinforcement system). I think you’ll be amazed at the power – and beauty - of a symphony orchestra.

My advice for a newbie to classical: Pick something “accessible”, like a Beethoven symphony. IMO, everyone should hear - at least once in their life - Beethoven Symphony 9 performed by a high-quality orchestra in a high-quality symphony hall. I imagine that many will be pleasantly surprised by the beauty, and be “blown away” by the power of a large orchestra and chorus – with no electronics involved in the performance.

Then, attend an opera that involves NO use of a sound reinforcement system. My advice for a newbie to opera: Pick something “accessible”, like a Puccini opera (e.g., “La Boheme” or “Madama Butterfly” or “Tosca”).

Bottom line: There is still 100% natural music performed live, without a “sound-board” operator and their electronics to “muck it up”. Is this “rare”? I suppose it depends on your lifestyle (i.e., what concerts you attend). Before the pandemic, I attended approximately 30 concerts per season, and none involved a sound reinforcement system. (And, I live in a medium-size city – i.e., not NYC). IME, the assertion that “Live orchestral music is rarely unmodified these days” is FALSE. (Though to be fair, it depends on how you define “rarely” – i.e., compared to “bar bands” and “pop concerts”, I suppose classical music is relatively rare.)
 
Here are a few that I'm aware of that use such systems.
The Concertgebouw,
Rose Hall at the Lincoln Center,
Eastman-Kodak Hall
Carnegie Hall
Jemison Concert hall, UAB
Baldwin Auditorium, Duke University
Tanger center, Greensboro.
Chicago Orchestral Hall
San Francisco's Davies Symphony Hall,
Walt Disney concert Hall.
New York Philharmonic at various venues.
Dallas Symphony at various venues.
Musikverein- Wein
Konzerthaus Berlin
King Culture and congress hall.
Nordea concert Hall,
Oslo concerthaus
London's Cadogan Hall
etc. etc. etc.
Some of these are amongst the most renowned halls for acoustics in the world.
And this is just for Meyer Sound. There are other purveyors- such as Harman Professional Solutions (The Kennedy Center etc) and more besides such as d&b audio technique Q system for Symphony Hall, Boston.
Other Halls are contracted for improvement not using the major companies (Royal Albert Hall, Festival Hall etc. etc)
Yes, I admit my statement was hyperbolic, but the trend is clear, and not every "improvement" is obvious...
 
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Here are a few that I'm aware of that use such systems.
The Concertgebouw,
Rose Hall at the Lincoln Center,
Eastman-Kodak Hall
Carnegie Hall
Jemison Concert hall, UAB
Baldwin Auditorium, Duke University
Tanger center, Greensboro.
Chicago Orchestral Hall
San Francisco's Davies Symphony Hall,
Walt Disney concert Hall.
New York Philharmonic at various venues.
Dallas Symphony at various venues.
Musikverein- Wein
Konzerthaus Berlin
King Culture and congress hall.
Nordea concert Hall,
Oslo concerthaus
London's Cadogan Hall
etc. etc. etc.
Some of these are amongst the most renowned halls for acoustics in the world.
And this is just for Meyer Sound. There are other purveyors- such as Harman Professional Solutions (The Kennedy Center etc) and more besides such as d&b audio technique Q system for Symphony Hall, Boston.
Other Halls are contracted for improvement not using the major companies (Royal Albert Hall, Festival Hall etc. etc)
Yes, I admit my statement was hyperbolic, but the trend is clear, and not every "improvement" is obvious...


My understanding is that almost every concert hall has a sound reinforcement system installed. From my perspective, the issue is which concerts use the sound reinforcement system?

As I said earlier, following is what I mean when I assert that the classical concerts that I attend feature “natural music”:

Classical Symphonic Music vs. Pop Musicians Performing with Orchestra vs. Outdoor Performances

My local symphony orchestra performs a Classical Series, plus a number of “pop concerts”, and a few outdoor concerts.

For the Classical Series – which involves classical music performed live in the symphony hall, there is no use of a sound reinforcement system. (According to the orchestra's Executive Director.)

OTOH, when pop music is performed in the same hall, electronics are often used. An example is when a pop singer uses a microphone to sing. And for some pop concerts, electric guitars and/or electronic organs are sometimes used.

And, on the rare occasion when the symphony performs an outdoor concert (e.g., outdoor Memorial Day concert), then of course a sound reinforcement system must be used.


Opera vs. Musicals

One of the hallmarks of opera is that the singers generally do NOT use microphones. And the orchestra does NOT use a sound reinforcement system. No electronics are involved when an opera is performed by my local opera company in my local opera house. (Other opera companies may on occasion use a sound reinforcement system, e.g., to overcome bad hall acoustics.)

OTOH, musicals performed in the same hall typically involve singers using microphones.

And, of course, on the rare occasion when an opera singer performs the National Anthem at the baseball park, then they must sing into a microphone.


Chamber Music

IME, chamber music performances generally do not involve a sound reinforcement system. (I’ve been to one concert by a string quartet that used sound reinforcement because the venue had poor acoustics. I won’t attend another concert at that venue.)​

Just because a venue (i.e., concert hall) is equipped with a sound reinforcement system, doesn’t mean that it is employed for every concert. Some symphony orchestras, and opera companies, are committed to delivering concerts that involve 100% natural sound.
 
Just because a venue (i.e., concert hall) is equipped with a sound reinforcement system, doesn’t mean that it is employed for every concert. Some symphony orchestras, and opera companies, are committed to delivering concerts that involve 100% natural sound.
Exactly.

Most supplement their symphony schedule with pop and musical content to keep revenue flowing. I would avoid any orchestra that relies upon sound reinforcement. Why would they do that?
 
Exactly.

Most supplement their symphony schedule with pop and musical content to keep revenue flowing. I would avoid any orchestra that relies upon sound reinforcement. Why would they do that?

Many do, in fact. Not all (any) concert halls have perfect acoustics throughout. The enhancements are there primarily to provide a better experience for those who can't sit in row N center where I like to seat myself. Those who are way off to one side, or towards the back or under a balcony, for example. Also, even halls that were supposedly designed for good acoustics (their numbers are legion) are really not so good by modern acoustical standards and no amount of add on sound deflectors and absorbers can fix them.
I was part of the group that evaluated the system that was incorporated in Greensboro's new c.2800 seat Tanger center, and the Meyer Constellation was installed. I sat through a few calibration sessions with the Orchestra in practice, and the Meyer team set up various DSP modes for orchestral, for "pop", for Broadway musicals, for example. The Symphony team also went to San Francisco where the system was installed in the symphony hall- and was also used for orchestral concerts- to evaluate its use. Baldwin Hall in Durham, where I am a subscriber for their chamber series (row 2 dead center) uses a lesser system for their chamber series- and it is active, and not at all noticeable where I sit, but quite noticeable, when on, at the back of the hall.
The local Symphony Director was/is very enthusiastic about that kind of system. He has experienced enhancement in many halls throughout the world both as a conductor and a performer (he's a world class violinist) and could hardly speak more highly of them- much to my distress.
I was invited to attend the set up sessions as they had grown tired of my bleating about the use of augmentations, and in deference to my financial support for the Orchestra I was able to attend and give my utterly worthless opinions.
Even renowned halls like the Symphony Hall, Boston, have crappy areas. I know-I've hung out under the balcony during the days when I was a starving young engineer, fresh off the boat, so to speak. I've also been to the Albert Hall (I went to college a stones throw from it) on several occasions, enduring the poor sound there, and also paid my dues in numerous visits to the "peanut" gallery of the Festival Hall (another hall famed for its acoustics) and they are supposedly much improved by the electronically controlled resonators, speakers etc. that have been added.
More or less every concert is recorded- including the symphony and chamber performances- and the microphones that are used for both purposes- archival and correction- are generally not very noticeable unless you look for them.
Frankly, for many people uncorrected live sound at these concerts is not so good. Not everyone gets to sit themselves in anything approaching an approximation of where the purist recording mics would be placed (whatever your preferred mic arrangement is). What the symphony boards and music directors care about is not the sensibilities of you, I, and our ilk, but the 20ish person of color who they are attempting to lure into the seats to keep the great tradition of western music/culture alive beyond this generation, and that means making the music as approachable and the sound as good as it can be, independent of our desires.
We're a dying breed. Almost nobody, including, in my experience, many musicians, gives a rat's a** about how it sounds to an audiophile. Musicians want their part to be heard and more punters to keep filling the seats so they can continue to get paid what they consider to be a pittance.
 
Fortunately, my local symphony which in recent times completely rebuilt the hall has no need.

As for the question of good/bad areas of a hall, you really should experience the Mormon Tabernacle environment. It's shaped kinda like a loaf of bread, but from the highest up and closest seats to the back wall, you still hear incredible articulation.
 
Fortunately, my local symphony which in recent times completely rebuilt the hall has no need.

As for the question of good/bad areas of a hall, you really should experience the Mormon Tabernacle environment. It's shaped kinda like a loaf of bread, but from the highest up and closest seats to the back wall, you still hear incredible articulation.
I have experienced it. I worked with a high tech company in Ogden, Utah for a while and was fortunate to attend a number of free performances early on Sunday mornings. I can't remember where I was in the structure. It was 40ish years ago.
 
I have experienced it. I worked with a high tech company in Ogden, Utah for a while and was fortunate to attend a number of free performances early on Sunday mornings. I can't remember where I was in the structure. It was 40ish years ago.
Way cool! Yes, they have quite a few practice sessions and performances available to the public.

The 32' stops are wonderful.
 
My support for classical music involves the following criterion (among many):
  • Music performed with absolutely NO use of electronics (i.e., no electronically produced sound, prerecorded sound, or use of electronics to amplify sound for either the singers or musical instruments).
My intent is that there will be “natural classical music” performed in my city for many years to come.
 
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