Great post, and what I was looking for at the start of this thread was any efforts to do just what you're describing.
Audio Debates - Consensus?
- Thread starter Negotiableterms
- Start date
Great post, and what I was looking for at the start of this thread was any efforts to do just what you're describing.
My 8-year-old son is neither a subjectivist nor an objectivist, but he does like the music, and he likes all the knobs, dials, and meters. He really loves connecting the cables for Daddy, because he's small and fits into all kinds of places that old fat Daddy can't go.
He was watching while I read this thread, and asked what an impedance curve meant. I explained about amps and speakers and impedance, not sure if he was following. He sat silent for a while, then asked: "Does the wire have an impedance curve?"
I was forced to reply that I've never heard or seen anyone measure the impedance curve of a cable, but guessed that if there's a curve at all, it would be almost flat. His answer was: "We should check. Do you have an impedance meter?" Needless to say, my VOM won't perform that trick.
Even if his idea turns out to be wrong, the gap will be bridged by his kind of open-minded thinking. The closed-minded approach espoused my marc mc (whom I don't mean to pick on, but he's carrying the extreme subjectivist view here) in which subjectivists won't even try to help the scientists, and the equally closed-minded approach by Peter Aczel and his followers, who won't even listen to the subjectivists, always gets us no where.
He was watching while I read this thread, and asked what an impedance curve meant. I explained about amps and speakers and impedance, not sure if he was following. He sat silent for a while, then asked: "Does the wire have an impedance curve?"
I was forced to reply that I've never heard or seen anyone measure the impedance curve of a cable, but guessed that if there's a curve at all, it would be almost flat. His answer was: "We should check. Do you have an impedance meter?" Needless to say, my VOM won't perform that trick.
Even if his idea turns out to be wrong, the gap will be bridged by his kind of open-minded thinking. The closed-minded approach espoused my marc mc (whom I don't mean to pick on, but he's carrying the extreme subjectivist view here) in which subjectivists won't even try to help the scientists, and the equally closed-minded approach by Peter Aczel and his followers, who won't even listen to the subjectivists, always gets us no where.
marc mc
Super Member
You still don't get what I said. Did you even read my points and reasons?
marc mc
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
bastek
Well-Known Member
Marc, everyone here gets what you said, but it seems to me like you are looking for approval. Believe me you don't need approval from anyone here, just open you mind a little more, you're getting there, please just O-P-E-N.
bastek
Well-Known Member
I think open minded is one who understands the "other side" not agree with different views or opinions. When i first joined AK 6 years ago, i used to laugh with most TOL related questions-threads, but i have slowly changed. My basic views-beliefs haven't change, but i understand and respect different opinions, audio related or not. Change is good for both (all) sides. And is nothing healthier than trying to defend your side.
Hmmm, maybe we were thinking about different things. With the exception of 4 terms (grain, imaging, muddy, and soundstage) those are all what I would call objective terms. I know there are glossaries out there for these terms. I was thinking of a set of definitions of subjective "audiophile" terms. The stuff I'm looking for is more along the lines of "midrange bloom", "forward", or "coherent". I know what these terms mean to me but that isn't necessarily what they mean to you or someone else. This is the language that I think gives the objective guys fits.
marc mc
Super Member
I never said your answers are useless.
My statement about useless is related to the apparent inability of some accepting the fact that some of us only use our ears and others need more evidence. And the conflict that has existed between those two positions for thousands of years in every area of life.
marc mc
I never said your answers are useless.
Then could you expand a little on this:
I'm afraid I'm missing something. For the most part, we agreed with you. There's a "however" here and there but I'm sure you didn't expect total agreement. How does our agreement with you prove the gap is unbridgeable?
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
I didn't read it, Ray. You're probably right. However, we all have access to a search engine. Got plumbing and appliance issues that are a tad more pressing than this at the moment...and damn, on the eve of the anniversary...
marc mc
Super Member
So you don't think I understand a tech and spec audiophile? You think I won't look at things from the "other side" of the fence?
marc mc
Yeah, but few, very few, can attain the level of laziness I currently hold.
Dang, sorry to hear it. Good luck with that!
bastek
Well-Known Member
No, because you' tried to impose rules and regulations and wanted me to agree with them. My mother believes that we came from Adam and Eve. I believe we came from star dust. Do you know how many wars could have been avoided if we all had an open mind?
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
Perhaps this one is better, Ray....I hope!
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cach...ary&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
marc mc
Super Member
Uhmmm if you check back over the history of audio the subjectivists are the ones that have ignored the rules and regulations. In fact my hobby is as far from a structured philosophy as you could get. I try every tweak and idea that anybody even hints at. I run 5 systems that have nothing in common with each other and swap in and out about 20 pairs of speakers that look like space ships. I run tubes, SS, ESL's, OB's, AS, 1,2,3,4,5 and 6 ways, TL, Line arrays, Actives, Turntables that are suspended, fixed and platterless and gear from about 30 companies.
bastek, my friends get a total chuckle at my complete and total disregard for any rules and regulations in my audio hobby. It has always been the science camp that has wanted standardization my friend. My one and only rule is "Try it and see how it sounds" I piss people off because I don't need any more proof than that.
marc mc
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Well folks, I'm afraid this thread is slowly winding to a close. Please recall that I asked whether anyone had seen any serious attempts to bridge the gap, and didn't want to start the debate over again...
The discussion has gone along politely, and for that I thank everyone, but as many have pointed out, the sides just don't get any closer by discussing.
I'm thinking about another thread in which we think of some experiments to start bridging the gap. Anyone interested in joining in that, post here. Anyone only interested in pointing out that we're wasting our time because they won't care what we come up with, please don't attend, as I'll be moderating the daylights out of that thread to prevent it going the way this one did. We may, or may not, conduct some of the experiments at the coming AK Fest, if we can come up with the gear... which often ain't cheap or easily moved.
NB: no one did anything wrong here, and I'm not closing the thread, it's just not going anywhere useful, and my goal was to come up with something useful.
The discussion has gone along politely, and for that I thank everyone, but as many have pointed out, the sides just don't get any closer by discussing.
I'm thinking about another thread in which we think of some experiments to start bridging the gap. Anyone interested in joining in that, post here. Anyone only interested in pointing out that we're wasting our time because they won't care what we come up with, please don't attend, as I'll be moderating the daylights out of that thread to prevent it going the way this one did. We may, or may not, conduct some of the experiments at the coming AK Fest, if we can come up with the gear... which often ain't cheap or easily moved.
NB: no one did anything wrong here, and I'm not closing the thread, it's just not going anywhere useful, and my goal was to come up with something useful.
the gap cannot be bridged!
it is the audiophile "language" I feel is the main cause of it!
just one example from stereophiles list: http://stereophile.com/reference/50/index2.html
chocolatey Like "syrupy," but darker and more full-bodied
draw your own conclusions from that one :thmbsp:
it is the audiophile "language" I feel is the main cause of it!
just one example from stereophiles list: http://stereophile.com/reference/50/index2.html
chocolatey Like "syrupy," but darker and more full-bodied
draw your own conclusions from that one :thmbsp:
bastek
Well-Known Member
Different genres require different descriptions, You can't really say "chocolatey" for rock or classical music, but you can say it for smooth jazz or electronic.
Side by side listening could help to bridge the gap, as people tend to be more polite when face to face, and can get a better idea of what they perceive or hear. It would be better to do this on a smaller scale, in our own rooms, with our own components. So to start, i' d like to invite any AKers from the other side, located close to 11370, for a face to face, open minded, ear to ear listening.
Side by side listening could help to bridge the gap, as people tend to be more polite when face to face, and can get a better idea of what they perceive or hear. It would be better to do this on a smaller scale, in our own rooms, with our own components. So to start, i' d like to invite any AKers from the other side, located close to 11370, for a face to face, open minded, ear to ear listening.