Best improvement / bang for buck

[EL Duke-A]

Yeah in all my recent Bluetooth research I discovered iPhones can only use the lower quality AAC Bluetooth codec and can’t utilize the higher quality aptX codec that android devices use... which is part of what kept me from jumping on a Bluetooth receiver since I have an iPhone. after learning my “ancient” Airport Express has that 1/8” optical out has lead me to wanting to try the WiFi connection of AirPlay for streaming, which I think allows for better sound quality?? FINALLY got my adapter yesterday, so plan on messing around with it today.

Again, streaming is a casual thing for me, but I’m interested to see just how good it’s going to sound going iPhone8 YouTube app > AirPlay via WiFi > Airport Express optical out > Topping D30 > MX-117 > partridge in a pear tree.

Cool. let us know how it goes. Trying to remember if i still have an airport around... had one a some point i think...

 

[daveg3588]

Thanks! The MC-752 amp is a secret gem in the McIntosh amp lineup, IMO. It sounds so good, but with it not having blue meters or a glass face it really flys under the radar. It’s direct coupled, yet I’ve never heard a McIntosh autoformer amp to compare.

I rarely listen to music on my Marantz system, but switch between multichannel stereo and pure direct two channel if I do. The one SACD I own is a 5.1 mix of Dark Side of the Moon, which is pretty fun to listen to on the 5 channel.

My living room is long and narrow, with each system at one end or the other, so for music I always listen to my McIntosh system. Plus, I mainly listen to records, and only have a TT on my MX-117.

Though not as new as your 752 the MC2200, so no meters or glass, is quite a powerful amp. It has the autoformers, but I only run at 3/4 level, never set it off but I can't stay in the room with that volume. Also Check out Melody Gardot, Live at The Olympia Paris DVD pure music porn, her band is tight and her vocals lushes' . Preacher man is out rages

 

[isotopesope]

Though not as new as your 752 the MC2200, so no meters or glass, is quite a powerful amp. It has the autoformers, but I only run at 3/4 level, never set it off but I can't stay in the room with that volume. Also Check out Melody Gardot, Live at The Olympia Paris DVD pure music porn, her band is tight and her vocals lushes' . Preacher man is out rages

Nice!! That’s the same amp the Greatful Dead used live I think? Yeah WAY more power than my little MC-752! Super low damping factor on the MC2200, so I presume a big bass sound?

Well, finally hooked up the Airport Express and am streaming some Dead Can Dance from YouTube via AirPlay and am VERY satisfied with the sound thus far. Very detailed, good separation and sound stage, as I would expect from my Topping D30. Easily sounds as good as a when I play CDs through this DAC. Anyone who’s in the market for an inexpensive DAC, I would emphatically suggest a strong look at it.

Such an apples to oranges comparison to the Bluetooth connection to my 5 channel system, but I am super stoked about how it sounds. while the BT to Marantz sounded “fine”, this sounds damn good. I’m also just so glad to have a streaming option on my 2 channel system, and only had to buy a toslink adapter and dust off my AE to make it work! Sounds waaaay better going through the D30 optically than using the crappy AE onboard DAC as well.

 

[EL Duke-A]

Nice!! That’s the same amp the Greatful Dead used live I think? Yeah WAY more power than my little MC-752! Super low damping factor on the MC2200, so I presume a big bass sound?

Well, finally hooked up the Airport Express and am streaming some Dead Can Dance from YouTube via AirPlay and am VERY satisfied with the sound thus far. Very detailed, good separation and sound stage, as I would expect from my Topping D30. Easily sounds as good as a when I play CDs through this DAC. Anyone who’s in the market for an inexpensive DAC, I would emphatically suggest a strong look at it.

Such an apples to oranges comparison to the Bluetooth connection to my 5 channel system, but I am super stoked about how it sounds. while the BT to Marantz sounded “fine”, this sounds damn good. I’m also just so glad to have a streaming option on my 2 channel system, and only had to buy a toslink adapter and dust off my AE to make it work! Sounds waaaay better going through the D30 optically than using the crappy AE onboard DAC as well.

nice. Thanks for sharing. sounds like a good bang for your buck.

Not clear on how you are using the optical adaptor? What audio out jack are you using on the Airport Ex and what version of the airport are you using?

 

[isotopesope]

nice. Thanks for sharing. sounds like a good bang for your buck.

Not clear on how you are using the optical adaptor? What audio out jack are you using on the Airport Ex and what version of the airport are you using?

I have the first generation AE. The jack you would plug an analog 1/8” headphone style connection into also functions as a mini toslink optical jack. I had no idea it did this until just recently. I also didn’t realize mini toslinks were even a thing.

I got this adapter to add to the end of a standard toslink SPDIF optical cable:
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=2671
You can also get optical cables with a regular and mini connection at each end:
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=1557

the 2nd gen and the 3rd AE Extreme base also have the same functionality. And though all these devices are discontinued, there’s still a pretty recent firmware update from 2018 allowing AirPlay 2 to work on them.

When I was using the AE 15? years ago, I plugged an 1/8” jack to RCA wye cable straight into my receiver’s aux input and used AirPlay via iTunes on my Windows PC to stream MP3’s to it.

Using an analog connection means you’re using the onboard DAC, which is only capable of 16 bit 44.1kHz CD quality sound. Back then I thought it sounded fine, not great, but allegedly just read the onboard DAC is actually pretty good?? (Though it can’t do high res...) Perhaps it was just the quality of MP3’s and my mid-fi system at the time that made me think it wasn’t so good?
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/revi...-and-Second-Generation-Apple-AirPort-Express/

2nd Gen AE DAC test and review:
https://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/airport-express-audio-quality-2014.htm

either way, I’m going to stick with my high res external DAC, but will have to try the onboard AE one again on my current system just for shits and giggles.

 

[twiiii]

Your biggest issue is the center channel speaker. It doesn't match anything else. I would be look for 3 identical speakers for the front channels. Preferably some a bit more efficient than what you have now. JBL, Klipsch, is where I would start.

 

[EL Duke-A]

Your biggest issue is the center channel speaker. It doesn't match anything else. I would be look for 3 identical speakers for the front channels. Preferably some a bit more efficient than what you have now. JBL, Klipsch, is where I would start.

yeah - i was wondering about that... contemplating the matching tower speakers for the martin logan 50 xti... the 60xti s... but that would be very expensive and i was trying not to spend a lot of money... perhaps some day i will pull the trigger on that.

 

[AudioGMan]

I have a hodge podge system. Onkyo sr706, martin logan 50xti center, vintage infinity rs iii fronts power by b&k st3140, some vintage ar bookshelf rears set up wirelessly, and 2 svs pb 2000 subs.

been fiddling with receiver settings for a while and just can seem to get it where i’m happy... it just feels like its missing something.

i use it for movies/tv (roku through nice samsung) and sound is dolby digital which is nice... but when i’m listening to analog coming in from spotify app on roku, i’m using PL II THX Music and its decent... but not as good as it should be given equipment... at least in my mind.

room is probably 14ft by 30 ft with 7ft ceiling - finished basement area. Carpet floor over concrete slab. Tv/equipment and Listening position are opposite the 14ft dimension. There is a fair amount of soft furniture in room and ceiling has several lower boxed in sections hiding duckwork/water lines etc... so a decent room for acoustics.

i dont mind spending money - but i want it to matter if f i do.

considered getting martin logan 60xti fronts but wondering if that would even be improvement over my infinity rs iii...

so - where would you start?

I’ve been installing audio/video systems for a living for the past 22 years both in residential and commercial settings so this is what I recommend. Place the speakers on the 14’ wall and 10’ apart from one another. You will have to experiment with the distance between the wall and the speakers to get the best imaging and bass response. You usually don’t have to bring them out further than 2’. Having two subwoofers vs one is a good thing so you’ve got that covered. Place a subwoofer in each FRONT corner. People might argue that subbass is omnidirectional and that is true but if you place a subwoofer right next to you or behind you I guarantee you’ll know it’s there when you hear an explosion.When you go to a movie theater the subs are never anywhere other than in front of you. Same thing at a live performance. A subwoofer should “disappear” into the system. When properly set up all the bass should sound like it’s coming only from the front speakers. Your listening position should form an imaginary equidistant triangle. So if your front speakers are 10’ apart then you should be 10’ away from each speaker. Toe in your front speakers to where they are facing you. Tweeters should be at ear level when you are sitting. That should place you back away from the wall roughly 12’ which is good. You don’t want your listening position to be right smack in the middle of the 30’ depth of the room because you will get bass cancellations there. In my opinion the rear surrounds don’t have to match the fronts. But all the tears should match each other. Given you have 7’ ceilings, place each rear surround soeaker 5’-6’ high on each side of the room and about 1’-2’ behind your listening spot. Do not aim them at your ears. Just straight forward at each other.They are surround speakers so they should only create ambiance. Aiming them directly at your ears makes them directional. Ideally your center channel should match your front speakers in timbre and that is why it’s usually a good idea to use all the same brand that matches the front speakers. Try setting up your receiver using a “phantom center to see if the sound improves. Center channels are great but work best when they match the front speaker’s sound. Equalization may help if your center doesn’t match your fronts but usually not cost effective vs just matching all three speakers. Also the center channel should be placed either directly above or below your tv. Below usually works best because a lot of times a tv is mounted up high and placing the center on top gives you a roller coaster effect with the sound. Aim the center directly at you. Ideally all the speakers in a surround sound set up would all be the same distance from your head but rarely is this possible usually not practical. Receivers can compensate for the different time arrivals but the closer you can physically accomplish this the better. Hope all this helps. Good luck.

 

[EL Duke-A]

I’ve been installing audio/video systems for a living for the past 22 years both in residential and commercial settings so this is what I recommend. Place the speakers on the 14’ wall and 10’ apart from one another. You will have to experiment with the distance between the wall and the speakers to get the best imaging and bass response. You usually don’t have to bring them out further than 2’. Having two subwoofers vs one is a good thing so you’ve got that covered. Place a subwoofer in each FRONT corner. People might argue that subbass is omnidirectional and that is true but if you place a subwoofer right next to you or behind you I guarantee you’ll know it’s there when you hear an explosion.When you go to a movie theater the subs are never anywhere other than in front of you. Same thing at a live performance. A subwoofer should “disappear” into the system. When properly set up all the bass should sound like it’s coming only from the front speakers. Your listening position should form an imaginary equidistant triangle. So if your front speakers are 10’ apart then you should be 10’ away from each speaker. Toe in your front speakers to where they are facing you. Tweeters should be at ear level when you are sitting. That should place you back away from the wall roughly 12’ which is good. You don’t want your listening position to be right smack in the middle of the 30’ depth of the room because you will get bass cancellations there. In my opinion the rear surrounds don’t have to match the fronts. But all the tears should match each other. Given you have 7’ ceilings, place each rear surround soeaker 5’-6’ high on each side of the room and about 1’-2’ behind your listening spot. Do not aim them at your ears. Just straight forward at each other.They are surround speakers so they should only create ambiance. Aiming them directly at your ears makes them directional. Ideally your center channel should match your front speakers in timbre and that is why it’s usually a good idea to use all the same brand that matches the front speakers. Try setting up your receiver using a “phantom center to see if the sound improves. Center channels are great but work best when they match the front speaker’s sound. Equalization may help if your center doesn’t match your fronts but usually not cost effective vs just matching all three speakers. Also the center channel should be placed either directly above or below your tv. Below usually works best because a lot of times a tv is mounted up high and placing the center on top gives you a roller coaster effect with the sound. Aim the center directly at you. Ideally all the speakers in a surround sound set up would all be the same distance from your head but rarely is this possible usually not practical. Receivers can compensate for the different time arrivals but the closer you can physically accomplish this the better. Hope all this helps. Good luck.

first off - thank you for taking the time to write this. I found it extremely helpful.

interestingly, before you wrote this i was starting to track to what you suggested.

i played around with mains closer to center channel and subs on the outside and the reverse... mains outside of subs so further away from center.

the problem i was having was the center channel seemed to dominate... i tried to correct by increasing level calibration of mains/lowering center... but center channel was still dominate...

I starting to hone in on it by putting in stereo... so center channel was not active... but it still sounded like the center channel was on and dominating... the placement of the mains was creating a center channel image!

when i moved mains to outside of subs, they happened to be 10 ft apart!!... then i adjusted down the level calibration of the mains and achieved great balance and separation. The “center channel” no longer dominated. I’m quoting center channel because of how the mains were creating a center channel sound before which was then amplified when the center channel was in action. Crazy.

i’m very impressed with how spot on you were with what actually works! Appreciate the information and expertise share.

Next challenge is subwoofer being great for music but during movie action scenes, it seems lower frequencies are just too much... bass becomes dominate and the room shakes... i love bass but this is a distraction.

thinking i’ve got a case of room gain maybe...??

I’ve read you can double longest room dimension and that is waive length of where room gain begins... and my room is actually 23x13 ft... measured just now... 40ft waive length is 28hz so using that data point as proxy... impact is 5-10 dbs per octave below starting point. Octave is 2x exponential i think so expect i’m getting + 5-10 dB around 15 hz causing my issues... my current theory at least.

i’m limited to how i can address this...

1) avr equalizer - settings at 63 hz, 40 and 25... max adj is -6 dB. Going to try taking 25 hz to -6 and 40hz to -3 and see how i do.

2) thx sub settings include bgc - which is boundary gain compensation. I think that basically does something along the lines of the adjustment above. Manual says its to compensate for excessive low frequencies when listener is near a room boundary. Played with this briefly and did not love it... seemed go tame the bass too much.

3) perhaps a more extreme option... but i guess i could play with plugging subwoofer ports... theory there is it would cause them to start rolling off higher up in frequency... but thinking this will be a last resort if other fixes dont address.

so - plan to play with this and see how i do... welcome thoughts and ideas.

Re-centering myself on point of this thread as free or very low cost improvements. So far i’ve made significant progress... moving mains further from center and adjusting speaker level calibration was another major and free win... its amazing how much small tweaks like this matter... and how difficult it is to get right and know what to tweak...

 

[AudioGMan]

first off - thank you for taking the time to write this. I found it extremely helpful.

interestingly, before you wrote this i was starting to track to what you suggested.

i played around with mains closer to center channel and subs on the outside and the reverse... mains outside of subs so further away from center.

the problem i was having was the center channel seemed to dominate... i tried to correct by increasing level calibration of mains/lowering center... but center channel was still dominate...

I starting to hone in on it by putting in stereo... so center channel was not active... but it still sounded like the center channel was on and dominating... the placement of the mains was creating a center channel image!

when i moved mains to outside of subs, they happened to be 10 ft apart!!... then i adjusted down the level calibration of the mains and achieved great balance and separation. The “center channel” no longer dominated. I’m quoting center channel because of how the mains were creating a center channel sound before which was then amplified when the center channel was in action. Crazy.

i’m very impressed with how spot on you were with what actually works! Appreciate the information and expertise share.

Next challenge is subwoofer being great for music but during movie action scenes, it seems lower frequencies are just too much... bass becomes dominate and the room shakes... i love bass but this is a distraction.

thinking i’ve got a case of room gain maybe...??

I’ve read you can double longest room dimension and that is waive length of where room gain begins... and my room is actually 23x13 ft... measured just now... 40ft waive length is 28hz so using that data point as proxy... impact is 5-10 dbs per octave below starting point. Octave is 2x exponential i think so expect i’m getting + 5-10 dB around 15 hz causing my issues... my current theory at least.

i’m limited to how i can address this...

1) avr equalizer - settings at 63 hz, 40 and 25... max adj is -6 dB. Going to try taking 25 hz to -6 and 40hz to -3 and see how i do.

2) thx sub settings include bgc - which is boundary gain compensation. I think that basically does something along the lines of the adjustment above. Manual says its to compensate for excessive low frequencies when listener is near a room boundary. Played with this briefly and did not love it... seemed go tame the bass too much.

3) perhaps a more extreme option... but i guess i could play with plugging subwoofer ports... theory there is it would cause them to start rolling off higher up in frequency... but thinking this will be a last resort if other fixes dont address.

so - plan to play with this and see how i do... welcome thoughts and ideas.

Re-centering myself on point of this thread as free or very low cost improvements. So far i’ve made significant progress... moving mains further from center and adjusting speaker level calibration was another major and free win... its amazing how much small tweaks like this matter... and how difficult it is to get right and know what to tweak...

You’re welcome. Your subwoofers should only cover the bass frequencies that your main speakers cannot. If they are ported then do not block the ports. Are the Infinity RSIII 4 ohm speakers? If so is your receiver capable of handling that load? What high pass crossover frequencies does the receiver allow? What is the subwoofer set up procedure? Are you supposed to turn the subwoofer gains to the middle and the crossover to maximum and then set the low pass via the receiver? Properly setting the crossover frequencies is what makes all the difference in the world. Sometimes you have to underlap the low pass and high pass points if the crossover slopes are 12dB/octave because if you set them both to the same frequency the final response will overlap and create a frequency response bump. With a steeper slope like 24dB/octave you can dial them in with less underlap or sometimes set both to the same frequency. Either way it takes some tweaking. Knowing the lower frequency limit of the main speakers doesn’t necessarily mean you want to use that as your subwoofer crossover point. If your main speakers can get down to 40Hz I would still recommend a higher subwoofer crossover point so that your main speakers and receiver are not working too hard by reproducing some bass that your subs can easily handle. I always recommend 70Hz as a good starting point. This way the bass that your subs are reproducing is omnidirectional meaning it’s not easy to localize. Remember you want the subs to “disappear”. You never want to separate your main speakers from your subs more than one wavelength of the crossover frequency. A 70Hz wavelength is about 16’ long. This is how you trick you brain into thinking that all the bass is coming from the main speakers.

 

[EL Duke-A]

You’re welcome. Your subwoofers should only cover the bass frequencies that your main speakers cannot. If they are ported then do not block the ports. Are the Infinity RSIII 4 ohm speakers? If so is your receiver capable of handling that load? What high pass crossover frequencies does the receiver allow? What is the subwoofer set up procedure? Are you supposed to turn the subwoofer gains to the middle and the crossover to maximum and then set the low pass via the receiver? Properly setting the crossover frequencies is what makes all the difference in the world. Sometimes you have to underlap the low pass and high pass points if the crossover slopes are 12dB/octave because if you set them both to the same frequency the final response will overlap and create a frequency response bump. With a steeper slope like 24dB/octave you can dial them in with less underlap or sometimes set both to the same frequency. Either way it takes some tweaking. Knowing the lower frequency limit of the main speakers doesn’t necessarily mean you want to use that as your subwoofer crossover point. If your main speakers can get down to 40Hz I would still recommend a higher subwoofer crossover point so that your main speakers and receiver are not working too hard by reproducing some bass that your subs can easily handle. I always recommend 70Hz as a good starting point. This way the bass that your subs are reproducing is omnidirectional meaning it’s not easy to localize. Remember you want the subs to “disappear”. You never want to separate your main speakers from your subs more than one wavelength of the crossover frequency. A 70Hz wavelength is about 16’ long. This is how you trick you brain into thinking that all the bass is coming from the main speakers.

hey Gman - all good points.

mains are 4 ohm. The b&k power amp pushing them is rated for 4 ohms.

sub woofers - crossovers set to full - 120/lfe and gains are about 1/2 turn.

Infinity RSiii mains are rated down to 40 hrz and center 50 hrz.

receiver highpass for lfe set to 120hrz and lowpass is now all set to 80hrz for all speakers. It sounds good to me here.

played around with lowpasses varying - i.e. 50 hrz for mains and 60 hrz for center... but after studying up for on it (read a few online blogs and watched a great video by the guys at audioholics), i came around to basically what you are saying and using 80 hrz across the board and feel the subs are really blending nicely...

... adjusted sub eq in receiver for 20 hrz down to -4 db to offset some room gain i was getting and that helped for bass heavy movie scenes so they still hit hard but its no longer what i considered just too much which it was before... glad it only took a -4db at 20hrz to fix... worried it might take more effort. Sub ports are still free and clear - no plugs.

appreciate the tips. Interesting that 70 hrz is 16ft.

welcome any other thoughts you have based on the above.

 

[JoeESP9]

Sub crossover is way to high for those speakers. Try 80HZ. Unless you have very special circumstances the high and low pass frequencies should be the same.

 

[EL Duke-A]

Sub crossover is way to high for those speakers. Try 80HZ. Unless you have very special circumstances the high and low pass frequencies should be the same.

Meant to type lpf of lfe is set to 120hz... crossover for all of the speakers for bass management is set to 80hz... so already set where you suggested . Thanks for catching that.

 

[EL Duke-A]

Coming back to streaming - read using air play 2 via my iphone and roku+ stick is basically like wi-fi streaming... it allows for up to cd quality so better than iPhone bluetooth or any of the native roku music apps connection... been using air play with spodify and it really does sound good.

also read trick to set sub distance +4ft from actual measurement due to delay in signal going through powered subwoofer... seemed to align bass better

also read putting center channel on front edge of entertainment center is better than having it back so sound does not bounce off top surface of entertainment center...

lastly, added two diy sound absorption panels made with rockwool sound proofing insulation and 1x4 frames and placed them on key reflection points... split cost with buddy and ended up paying about $90 for 4 though i need to finish the other two... wrapped them in burlap coffee bags from a local roaster... turned out pretty cool... see below.

Even better than before...

Minimal investment and significant improvement!