Beta's, QLS1's , Ren 90's

[Nikkoholic]

This post is to share some personal findings in comparing these 3 speakers. These speakers don't have much in common and are all at different "levels", but these thoughts are being shared in the event if some else is looking at vintage Infinity my find something helpful here. Not scientific just subjective listening from my personal perspective.

Currently trying to reduce my Infinity speaker "collection". In the decision process I set up 2 systems side by side with the ability to switch between systems quickly for some A/B/C comparisons. Both systems shared very similar components and are bi-amped. In day to day listening I do eq these systems to my tastes. During the listening test all eq was bypassed.

For months I have been comparing my Beta's and QLS1's. I owned the QLS1's since 1978 so I know these speakers and know their set up. The Beta's have been a struggle getting them right for my space and ears. Finally got the Beta's to suit me and really do enjoy them. But what I found is these 3 speakers really all sound quite different with very few similarities.

The Beta's produce with out a doubt the deepest bass I have ever heard, the depth and power is amazing. I love bass but find that I listen with the low freq. cut back -6 db in the servo controller. I did find the mids to be lacking on these speakers and through PM with another Beta owner came to the conclusion it was the room, thus I added an eq and simply addressed the frequency range that was weak to my ears. This solved the problem and really made the speaker complete.

The QLS-1 on the other hand, seemed to always have tremendous bass until hearing the Betas. But other than the ultra deep bass, the QLS1 has and still is a very complete speaker for my taste. The mids and highs are strong and well balanced and while the bass is not nearly as powerful as the Beta's, the QLS1 has what seems to be a tighter bass, perhaps that impression stems from the bass not being as dominant. I did do a lot of A/B comparing with just the low freq. drivers with the QLS1 Watkin woofer seeming to be just a little tigher. For this comparison I did adjust my active crossover to match the crossover points of the servo controller for a "fair" comparison. Weaker but tighter.

On the high frequencies the 2 speakers really sound quite different. The QLS being a line source speaker really has a full and well dispersed sound especially with regard to vertical positioning (However sitting in a low chair does promote low freq. on the QLS). The Betas have an airiness about them, the sound is a bit sensitive to height, but more impressive, you can walk between the hi freq towers and can barely detect the sound plane. The sound just seems to "exist" throughout the room. The Betas also produce the highest frequencies a little stronger with more clarity. One observation about the these 2 speakers in the midrange is the QLS mid bass couple does a lot of work and produces a lot of sound. The Beta L-EMIM doesn't really have the punch like that of a cone driver.

If you throw the Ren90 into the mix it gets a little more complex. In comparison of the 3 the Ren90 is my least favorite with regard to bass. The 10" watkins woofer just really doesn't get the job done. Not sure if it is the driver or the cabinet size, but bass on this speaker is pretty weak (in comparison mind you). However the Ren90 has very powerful high frequency and is crystal clear. Maybe even a little too bright, but a distinguishing feature in this speaker. The Ren90 even produced stronger top frequencies than the Betas and definitely the QLS1. The Ren 90 has a very complete sound that is not very sensitive to placement. Too bad Infinity couldn't complete the picture with decent bass. Nice compact package and good looking speaker.

So I like and dislike something about each of these speakers, but since I was biamping and the way things were set up I had the ability to listen to 1/2 QLS1 and 1/2 REN90. So QLS1 watkins woofer with the REN90 Mid/Hi freq. That was an awesome combination with proof to me the Ren90 could have used a 12" woofer.

So the order is perhaps as expected (Beta, QLS1, Ren 90). If I had to get rid of one pair it would be the Ren 90, but since the all have such unique characteristics it's hard to let any go.

One more mention is there is also a pair of RSIIIb's that were not included in this listening test due to space limitations. These are in my son's room and there have not been any side by side comparisons with these speakers. Next I'll have to line them up against the Ren90's. The Rens should win but the RSIIIb's do have strong bass, we'll see. Based on price and technology the Ren90 better win. But the dual 10" bullet woofers do sound nice.

As said not scientific at all, but just listening and trying to determine what appeals to me. I just downloaded some frequency generating files and picked up an SPL meter. So in the next couple of weeks I'll try to do a more scientific analysis to see if my ears match the data.

 

[kmanusa]

I am not surprised at the order in which you ranked these Infinities but I think your observations are quite interesting. They are in some ways related to my observations with my pair of RS-4.5s.

I wonder what kind of EQ device did you choose to equalize the Beta? Was it a parametric, graphic or digital EQ device? Did you EQ the mids, lower mids, or bass?

I guess it is not surprising that the QLS, Beta, and Ren 90 differ in sound. The QLS is a line source but is not dipolar, yes? The Beta is dipolar but perhaps more of a point source than a line source, similar to the RS-1b? The Ren 90 is a direct radiator? So they all may share some driver technology but they appear to be distinctly different design philosophies.

My journey with the RS-4.5 has been interesting too. I find the speaker needs a boost somewhere in the lower mids to upper bass to compensate for a suckout there. No amount of crossover adjustments seem to make this suckout go away. So, I am considering the same sort of EQ you did to your Betas to get some body back into the sound of the 4.5.

 

[Nikkoholic]

I wonder what kind of EQ device did you choose to equalize the Beta? Was it a parametric, graphic or digital EQ device? Did you EQ the mids, lower mids, or bass?

I guess it is not surprising that the QLS, Beta, and Ren 90 differ in sound. The QLS is a line source but is not dipolar, yes? The Beta is dipolar but perhaps more of a point source than a line source, similar to the RS-1b? The Ren 90 is a direct radiator? So they all may share some driver technology but they appear to be distinctly different design philosophies.

The eq was a simple Graphic eq. All if flat on the bass up to 125Hz, then I start increasing slightly with a 10 db boost at 315 and 500 hz. Then small tweaks after that.

My equipment is not sofisticated. All Vintage Nikko stuff from early 80's, but that is across the board so the listening test should be fair, since all are getting virtually the same source power.

You are right QLS1 is line source but does have 2 rear firnig EMITs.
Beta is dipolar but not line source only 2 drivers duplicated are the L-EMIMs
Ren 90 is a direct radiator with some sort of a insulated port for the back of the hi engery EMIT.

I always wondered about the 4.5, seems like there would be a freq. void between what the watkins can hangle and the EMITs can handle. Thanks for you comments.

 

[kmanusa]

The eq was a simple Graphic eq. All if flat on the bass up to 125Hz, then I start increasing slightly with a 10 db boost at 315 and 500 hz. Then small tweaks after that.

My equipment is not sofisticated. All Vintage Nikko stuff from early 80's, but that is across the board so the listening test should be fair, since all are getting virtually the same source power.

You are right QLS1 is line source but does have 2 rear firnig EMITs.
Beta is dipolar but not line source only 2 drivers duplicated are the L-EMIMs
Ren 90 is a direct radiator with some sort of a insulated port for the back of the hi engery EMIT.

I always wondered about the 4.5, seems like there would be a freq. void between what the watkins can hangle and the EMITs can handle. Thanks for you comments.

Interesting then your EQ boost is mainly in the lower mids, maybe there is some dipolar cancellation effect going on there? Nikko made some nice stuff back then.

I would agree the crossover between the woofer and EMIMs is where I would have expected to see the suckout in the 4.5. But, based on what I can measure with spectrum analyzer and 1/3 octave pink noise and tones, the suckout is primarily below the crossover and extends into the bass. It is kind a broad shallow dip from below 200 Hz to down around 70 Hz or so. I can goose it up a little in that range if I use subwoofers(!) and biamp the 4.5 but I can't get the suckout to go away entirely that way without other problems showing up.

 

[SuperKris]

Thanks for writing that down.

Compared to many of you here im still very new to infinity, but i just love the sound of all the infinity's i ever heard. I own Qb's and Qe's that are fine for now, but i do wanna upgrade at some point, and i do want infinity again.

I heard so many good things about the renaissance 90, and i love their design. I think sound comes first, but i want my speakers to be in my livingroom, so it would be nice if they look good. If you compare them to other "high end" infinity's they are not very expencive. Over here i can find a renaissance for not much more than 800 euro. A kappa 9A will cost you 1200-1400 euro, a QLS1 if they are ever sold over 2000 euro, and the only beta i have ever seen for sale was 6500 euro. That makes the renaissance kinda cheap. It will cost me about the same as a kappa 8a or a RS2.5

Not saying the renaissance 90's are the ones i will buy, but i have a limited budget, and they have so many great reviews, and a beautyfull design (did you ever see thise in piano black? they are amazing). They are just a very smart choice i think.

I wonder if a nice servo sub will fix the bass of the renaissance 90.

 

[Nikkoholic]

I wonder if a nice servo sub will fix the bass of the renaissance 90.

I believe it would based on my experiment with running the Watkins woofers from the QLS1 in conjunction with the Ren90 (less the woofer). That combo sounded very complete and the best of both speakers; less the line source array design; however setting in a chair and not moving (which is how I listen) the line source becomes less important.

Ren90 with a sub would get my vote.

 

[Ken Boyd]

Great little write up, I will keep that in mind if I can find a pair of Beta's sometime soon!:yes: By the way did anyone else but me not be able to access Audiokarma over the weekend?

 

[MrLegit]

SuperKris-Forget the rest and buy the best(that is in your price range).Not much price difference between the Ren 90 and the Kappa 9.If you haven't heard the Kappa 9's,not the Kappa 9.1 or 9.2-listen to them before you make any decision.After all,stereo should be listened to with just the speakers,not added subs.Adding subs is cheating in my opinion,and should be in all audiophile cases.Subs are for movies.
Imaging,airiness,seperation,sound stage and bass will impress you with the Kappa 9's.Yes,the Delta/Gamma and Beta sound great but take away the servo controller and you are back to roughly a Kappa 9 with the Delta/Gamma and of course the Beta can only run in servo and has twice as many bass drivers,so we will take that out of the equation.In my opinion,a Kappa 9 overall is the way to go and on top of their sound,what a furniture piece.
I have never liked black speakers and preffer Americam oak or Santos(Brazilian Rose Wood).

 

[Nikkoholic]

SuperKris-Forget the rest and buy the best(that is in your price range).Not much price difference between the REN 90 and the KAPPA 9's.If you haven't heard the kappa 9's and I am talking about the kappa 9 not the kappa 9.1 or 9.2-the actual kappa 9 listen to them before you make any decision.After all stereo should be listened to with just the speakers not subs.Adding subs is cheating.Imaging,seperation,sound stage and bass will blow you away with the kappa 9's.Yes Delta/Gamma and Beta sound great but take away the servo controller and you are back to roughly a Kappa 9 with the Delta/Gamma and of course the Beta can only run in servo and has twice as many bass drivers so we will take that out of the equation.In my opinion a Kappa 9 overall is the way to go and on top of their sound what a furniture piece.I have never liked black speakers and preffer the Americam oak or Santos(Brazilian Rose Wood).

Good comments. I have never heard any of the Kappa's, but the dual woofers has to help. I like the variety of drivers to cover the various frequencies, hope to hear a pair someday. I can tell you the Beta's with out the Servo are dead. I ran my Beta's with an active crossover and disconnected the servo (just to see how much impact the servo had). With out the servo this speaker falls way short in my opinion.

As for the subs, can't you run 2 subs, 1 left 1 right? Not that that is a cheaper option for SuperKris, but just a general question.

 

[Newk_Yuler]

I have 6 and 8 Kappas. Nudell era designs, not the HK point models. 2 sets of each and the 6s and 8s are in individual systems. The 6 Kappas are stacked in a smaller office system across the room from my desk (as I sit here) and connected to new technology high resolution, low power solid state equipment for ambient level listening. The 8s are in the big system and connected to somewhat lower resolution but much more powerful (1990s) hardware. Driven by a set of Adcom 555 II amps, not biamped.

These Kappas are capable of very good imaging and sound field. I've found the Kappa Emits and Polydomes to be an excellent combination and the odd looking Polygraph to be a very good midbass driver in the 8s (and 9s). Neither of these speakers are bass champs, though. The graphite injected poly single coil woofers don't stand up to the Watkins, but that's comparing apples and oranges, really. I'm not a bass nut anyway and the Kappas are very well balanced, flat and realistic sounding speakers with no perceptable holes in the frequency response.

The 8 Kappas pass the 'cat test'. When I play nature atmospheres with birds singing, the cat looks for the birds. My consumer electronics grade home theater can't do that.

I've considered the 8s to be a very good compromise for the extra drivers in the 9s. I'm sure the 9's go lower with dual woofers but I've always wondered about the the practical application of the Semit with an Emit under it that's completely capable of producing pristine and accurate frequencies way beyond anything anyone can hear. I've always kinda thought the Semit was just icing on the top Kappa model and more of a novelty as another Emit on top of an Emit. Heck, they put Semits in some of the RS x000 and labeled them Emits too. The same models some had full sized Kappa Emits in them. Anyone know any stories about that?

I remember listening to the Kappa series side by side in a listening room back in the late 80s (when my hearing reached higher into the treble). Each speaker had a little less than the one above it, but the 8s seemed to be reasonably very close to the 9s considering the cost difference and power requirements of the two.

I'll throw this in here too... My first Infinity speakers was a brand new set of RS 1.5 purchased in 1980 to play Rush and Van Halen vinyl as loud as a flagship Adcom GFA1 would drive them. Compared to virtually any of Infinity's other designs, these speakers were made to play hard rock with a powerful amp cranked over the edge of good adult sensibility. Emit, 5" poly mid, and our beloved classic Watkins gray 12" woofer. The mid driver is very well suited to sit between those other 2 drivers and the combination made for a unique niche model. I was 19 when I got them and I remember setting all that up in my folks' living room on the same circuit as the television. When Neil Peart hit the beat the TV would wink as the amp sucked the power out of the circuit. I still have them but they aren't in service right now. I have a set of earlier clear poly Watkins in them out of someone's set of RS 4.5s. The grills and cabs are in 9.9 condition with no marks. Just some mild sun bleaching in the oak veneer. I've always been very careful with them. They don't have the ugly bolt-on leg panels. I couldn't imagine brutally screwing the panels into the sides of those beautiful speakers.

- Rand

 

[MrLegit]

You can run two subs or as many as you wish.
Seriously,you should just listen to the two main speakers,when music is listened to.

 

[Grainger49]

Great write up. Thanks for taking the time to put it into words. I know you wanted to make some decision about your speakers but we appreciate you sharing your thoughts and views. Well stated.

I date back to the day when the Servo-Statik I was the beast, then the Servo-Statik IA, then the QLS(1?). Those were the days I sold audio gear. So that may be the source of my confusion in terminology. We called them dipole speakers. The SS, like a Magnepan, produced as much sound from the rear as from the front, rear being 180 degrees out, just the rear wave of the Mylar. Then, IIRC, and I may not, the QLS had drivers on the rear that were wired out of phase so that the sound resembled that of the electrostatics.

Infinity had built the SS-I, and 2000A with electrostatic tweeters using the full rear wave from them. The 1001 had a tweeter on the rear in series and out of phase with the front tweeter that emulated the open sound of the electrostatic speakers. "Open" was their signature sound.

The term dipole first came to my attention with Paradigm speakers (I think that is right). The rear drivers pulsed outward, rearward, at the same time the front speaker pulsed outward, forward. Similar to the wave of a Walsh driver that Infinity used in the Monitor, 2000AXT and WTLC. I liked the Walsh driver.

Am I getting this right??? Help an old guy here!

Are the QLS rear firing EMITs wired in phase or out of phase with the front tweeters? Same for the duplicated L-EMIMs on the Beta, and I get it for the Ren 90, that is a rear wave like an electrostatic.

. . . The QLS is a line source but is not dipolar, yes? The Beta is dipolar but perhaps more of a point source than a line source, similar to the RS-1b? . . .

. . . You are right QLS1 is line source but does have 2 rear firing EMITs.

Beta is dipolar but not line source only 2 drivers duplicated are the L-EMIMs
Ren 90 is a direct radiator with some sort of a insulated port for the back of the hi energy EMIT. . . .

 

[Maxamillion]

I guess I will need to chime in with my personal favorite Infinity speaker, the RSIIb. I believe it is the single best all around speaker that Infinity ever made - it is a bit harder to find than the ones mentioned above, however. It has many of the stellar qualities of the RSIb (four tower monsters) but in a package that will fit into a normal sized room. A beautiful-looking speaker as well (of course that is in the eye of the beholder).

The EMIM dipole midrange is to die for, and far superior to that of the polydome, IMO. I also really like the sound of the 10" polypropylene woofers with the bullet phase plug; I do not need any more bass beyond what these provide. These have the HF EMIT as well as the standard and rear EMITs, and the HF EMIT does add some nice sparkle to the sound above and beyond the standard single EMIT (I also have RS5bs so I know what a single EMIT sounds like).

Although I really liked their sound when I first picked them up, I am stunned by how good these speakers sound now, after I have built outboard crossovers with premium parts and litz wire, braced and sealed the woofer cabinet, and rebuilt/upgraded the equalizer module. I would put them up against any speakers on the planet right now, including those in the $10,000+ range which I have heard at the local high-end salons. They are that good.

I can only imagine how the addition of new EMIM diaphragms from Apogee Acoustics (which are on their way to me right now) will further improve things. I'm lovin' these babies right now!

 

[Nikkoholic]

I guess I will need to chime in with my personal favorite Infinity speaker, the RSIIb. I believe it is the single best all around speaker that Infinity ever made - it is a bit harder to find than the ones mentioned above, however. It has many of the stellar qualities of the RSIb (four tower monsters) but in a package that will fit into a normal sized room. A beautiful-looking speaker as well (of course that is in the eye of the beholder).

......... I'm lovin' these babies right now!

Ahhhh, if I only had more room, not only for what I have, but for more. Kappa 9's and RSIIb's would certainly be on the list.

 

[Grainger49]

What? No One Said It?

It seems no one has said it...


:worthless

Seriously, I would love to see pictures.

 

[Nikkoholic]

Ill try to get some later in the week. Sorry about that.

 

[analog addict]

Ahhhh, if I only had more room, not only for what I have, but for more. Kappa 9's and RSIIb's would certainly be on the list.

Funny you should say that, since that is what I own, along with a pair of RS IVb's in my upstairs office. I've been meaning to A/B the big ones, but some Altec 604's have distracted me recently....:nono:

 

[Grainger49]

Any help on bipole/dipole from my first post?

 

[cdfac]

the rear QLS1 tweeter is out of phase. at the crossover point, this should create a dipole effect ala open-backed EMIMs since the depth of the cabinet corresponds to roughly 4.5 wavelengths at 4kHz. in reality it may not make much difference, since you've got 8 front tweeters and only one rear and so probably not too much destructive or constructive interference in either case.

 

[Ken Boyd]

I would tend to beleive that the Beta's and the Gamma's should sound much better than any Kappa 8 or Kappa 9 but since I don't own a pair of Beta's or Gamma's I can't say that for sure. But if anyone doesn't think so I would galdly trade a like new pair of Kappa 9's for a pair of Beta's or Gamma's. I have both the Kappa 8's and the Kappa 9's and I think of them as my least favorite of Infinity's, not that they don't sound good or that I don't like them. But I personally pefer a Pair of QLS-2's over any pair of Kappa's, and the
QLS-1 much better than any Kappa series, I say that based on many hours of listening to them all as I own all of them. I would say I still prefer the
RS-1b's or RS-1s over the QLS series with one exception I prefer the QLS-1 high frequency over the RS-1 and RS-1b (not much difference between the pair). The QLS-1 high frequency sounds more refined and overall better to me. As far as bass qauntity and quality I prefer the RS-1's over all of them with the QLS series next, in my opinion the Kappa line falls way short compared to the others. I am glad music reproductions are a objective taste as it would be no fun if everyone liked the same thing. Their would be no need for different types of speakers. I like the sound of all these speakers and part of the fun is discovering the differences and enjoying them for what they are, they all are very good sounding to me, but some are better than others, their is no doubt. Some day I would like to be lucky enough to have a pair of the IRS Beta's, but have some serious problems spending a lot of money on speakers that spare parts are hard to obtain and being of age are problematic to failure. I would have a hard time convincing myself it is worth it, and at what point is does it sound that much better? I have not seen any new EMIM's or good used ones for that matter for the Beta's and Gamma's and it would really be a bummer to have a pair sitting idle because of driver blown and no where to get a replacement.