Beta's, QLS1's , Ren 90's

[MrLegit]

Ok.

 

[beemer]

I know for a fact that if the accelerometers fail in a control driver(Delta/Gamma/Beta or even IRS-IRSV)you are in trouble as there is no off the shelf accelerometers that are compatable with the servo controller.If your put in this predicimant the Gamma's are only as good as a Delta will ever be.A Beta is totally worthless as it doesn't have a passive crossover to fall back on neither does the IRS or IRSV.
I have gone to extrodinary lengths devising an accelerometer to work with the servo controller just to have spares.Let me tell you that it was costly and timely,not so much in the parts department but research and experimentation,but they work perfectly and I must add that the accelerometers even have a better response than the original.As they get old the accelerometers fade away and response and accuracy let you down resulting in a slower response output of the driver,sounds more like multiple subs.This is because the response time cant correct the motion of the driver or phase switch of the signal quick enough resulting in a floppy bass.

Betas have a complete passive crossover in the mid tweeter towers. Actual fact is that you may feed a full range signal direct to the mid/tweeter towers without the use of the servo box. There are also many capable active crossovers available that can and will work wonderfully with Beta woofers. Keep in mind the Beta and the Kappa 9 share the same woofer. I don't hear many people with K9's complain much about wooly bass. Only those who cheap out on the quality by using middle of the road amplifiers. High current and high damping factor make all the difference with these. Beta's love amps with negative feedback on the low side.

There are plenty of servo woofers available if you know where to look.

Folks throw some wacky $$$ figures around here regularly. I believe it was Tom Brennan that summed it up perfectly long ago: "Folks here toss nickles around like manhole covers". Best quote EVER at AK!

Regards,

Paul

 

[phaedrus]

There are plenty of servo woofers available if you know where to look.

Well, I, for one, would appreciate you telling us where to look, because I haven't been able to find one. I'd love to have a spare. Thanks for any help on that.

David

 

[Newk_Yuler]

This thread evolved into a great read in just a few days. I've never seen so much chest beating about Infinity speakers. Feels like a band of brothers.

I mentioned recently in another thread here that I acquired a set of RS 4.5 a few years ago and connected them to the same hardware that drives my tandem 8 Kappas. I'm not completely certain but I believe the 4.5 have age related issues, but all the drivers work. I need to determine where the set I have fit into the evolution of the crossover. I know the 4.5 were available with the clear poly Watkins at some point (I assumed was earlier) and my set has the much more common gray poly cones.

Comparing the 8 Kappas to the RS 4.5, the 8s stomped the 4.5 in every way except the bass extension, and the 4.5 had a big mid bass hole between the Watkins and the Emims. I put a third octave EQ in line and tried to compensate but it never came close. I think the design would benefit greatly from a mid bass driver. Otherwise, I suspect the 4.5 I have really desperately need an electrical rebuild.

The point being that the 8 Kappas, wherever they sit in the chain of Arnie Nudell era Infinity speakers' sound quality, sound MUCH better than the RS 4.5 in my system.

I mentioned that I listened to the entire Kappa series in a listening room at a local audiophile dealer in the late 80s. I didn't find substantial difference between the 8s and 9s but it's important to point out that I was listening to CDs in that room and dealers had no concept of jitter in digital equipment in that period of time. The sound was clean and clear typical of CDs played on very good quality equipment but proper audiophile analogue-like stereo imaging was virtually nonexistent. That's why there have been so many vinyl die-hards that refused to buy into CDs. The vinyl guys were right until recent years when audiophile manufacturers identified the issue and solved the problems.

We're here talking about the qualities of our speakers and very little has been said about what we use to drive them. My stacked tandem 6 Kappa are sourced by a computer audio server running into an Empirical Audio Off Ramp USB interface with a world class reclocker that removes a critical amount of jitter, allowing excellent stereo characteristics to move through the system. The 6s are being driven by a set of little Tripath 2024 digital amps. They project an excellent stereo image. The speakers virtually disappear in the sound field.

I'd think a good, easy test for any digital audiophile system would be to put a comfy chair in a prime listening spot, play an excellent quality stereo recording, turn out the lights (for a completely dark room) and try to find the speakers with your mind's eye. If your system is doing a proper job you shouldn't be able to see the speakers. The sound should be in the room, not coming from the speakers. Jitter stifles that quality. If you can easily find the speakers with the lights out, something isn't right.

 

[cdfac]

If you can easily find the speakers with the lights out, something isn't right.

the recording is indeed a big key, there can't be much hardpanning. and you must be sitting the proper distance away for your particular speakers for the waveforms to properly cohere.

i think it's harder when you're already very familiar with where the speakers are, as one usually is in their own listening room. i find it helps to just close my eyes, relax, and totally give in to the music - there quickly comes a point where suddenly the speakers and back wall disappear, and the stage magically appears 30 feet away and 20 feet wide (depending on the recording, of course). it can be very eerie!

 

[MrLegit]

Well aware of the passive crossover for the Mid/High freq columns.
Talking about the bass towers.
Well not totally worthless.
Active EQ is the only logical alternative,unless a passive circuit is built.
Far from the servo controlled bass that the system stands for.

 

[Ken Boyd]

No one in their right mind would do that trade. Perhaps a basket case set of Betas, however by the time you got them up you'd spend more than you would for a pair that was 100%. Beta servo box/crossover alone is a $1600 item fully functional.

Paul

I know that Paul, I was just trying to make a point.

 

[Nikkoholic]

....As they get old the accelerometers fade away and response and accuracy let you down resulting in a slower response output of the driver,sounds more like multiple subs.This is because the response time cant correct the motion of the driver or phase switch of the signal quick enough resulting in a floppy bass.:thmbsp:

MrLegit, So if you bought a pair of used Beta's any way of telling if the accelarometer is fading? What would be signs of that, I've never heard multiple subs.

 

[Nikkoholic]

There are also many capable active crossovers available that can and will work wonderfully with Beta woofers.

I tried an active crossover with the Beta towers just to see what the effect of the Servo had on sound. The servo is a critical component in my opinion; without it the low end dropped out completely.

 

[Maxamillion]

I would agree that the RSIIb look the goods and they will sound sweeter or smoother in the mid frequency but the Kappa 9's just grunt along with a complete sound spectrum covering all frequencies,where the RSIIb will lack some what in the mid bass where compensations would have to be made with external eq's comprimising the signal path niot mentioning taking away quality sound.You simply cant take a driver out of its comfort zone to cover a frequency you dont have to begin with.Doing this just compremises the speaker and takes away its natural frequency range it was designed to represent.For example crossing the bass at a higher frequency will take away bass not to mention take it out of tune with the enclosure volume and on the other end taking a mid down to the upper bass frequencies just makes it sound not as silky and smooth not to mention the imaging you lose.Mid bass is so important,just look at the Delta/Gamma,its L-Emim has the same surface area as a 12" driver.
Flick the switch to extended bass on the Kappa 9's and I say no more.Of course you need the amp power behind these speakers to do this.This is in stock formation that I am talking about.
Now we will talk about a set of kappa 9's that have been hotted up.High quality caps,self wound inductors and specific speaker cable to match certain
frequencies.Basically an all out assault.No eq's or active crossovers.I bet you wouldn't would put you speakers on the table in a comparison test because you will no longer own them.I'm not being mean or rude just speaking the facts.
Of course there is better speakers in the Infinity family but the Kappa 9's are not to be wreckened with.Delta/Gamma and of course the Beta take it to a complete new playing field so I think comparing the RSIIb to a set of Kappa 9's,Delta/Gamma or Beta is a complete over statement.I would compare them closer to a hotted up pair of Kappa 8's from personal experience.

Well, I guess we have to disagree here. I've heard Kappa 9s and was not very impressed, except by the bass, and even then, it was too much for the room and ended up sounding boomy. The poly midranges just can't compare to the EMIMs, and so much of the magic of the music is in the midrange that that limitation is unacceptable for me. Bill Legall of Millersound has said that he considers the RSIIb to be among the most musical speakers he has ever heard, and that is quite a compliment coming from him. Sterophile magazine also referred to them very positively in a review of the RS1bs back in the 80's.
Speaking of "hotted up", I'm referring to my pair of RSIIbs, which I have gutted and rebuilt with cabinet bracing and sealing, outboard passive crossovers using Mundorf caps, Northcreek and Solen Heptalitz inductors, Cardas litz wire (different wire for woofers, mids and tweeters). I have also completely rebuilt the low frequency equalizer using Mundorf caps, nude Vishay Z-foil resistors, OPA827 opamps, etc. and it is now incredible in the bass detail and impact while being completely transparent to the other frequencies. Even my wife commented on the fullness of the bass and mid-bass after the mods - I think a lot of the shortcomings of the stock version is the poor quality of the crossover components - the cabinet is filled with cheap caps, steel-core and very loosely wound air core inductors, mounted virtually on top of each other, with magnetic connectors and screws all over the place, and wired together with way-too-thick vinyl-covered Monster Cable. I have removed all traces of those components, put the new ones into a separate box behind the speakers, and anything that is anywhere near the crossovers is made of MDF, plastic, brass or copper. There is a thread here outlining all the mods (with pictures).

So, I guess unless you bring your speakers to the US or I bring mine to Australia for comparison we will never be in agreement. So we can agree to disagree.

 

[rabbit]

By saying this I dont mean that Kappa 9's are the holy grail,but when comparing prices they certainly do a damn good job.My Delta/Gamma sound better in Delta mode but only in the upper frequency.The upper's sound silkier and smoother (basically more correct).In Gamma mode they walk all over the Kappa 9's by far.Comparisons I have done come from personal experience using the same amplification,cables and source material,and all comparisons in the same room.I dont mean to offend anyone but I stand my ground.Comparisons based on the complete Kappa family and the Delta/Gamma.

The last pair of Kappa 9's I saw in Australia were selling for $3,500. I paid $2000 for my RS4.5's and have not regretted it. Also a swept sinewave test on the bass section of my speakers shows a 2 db drop at around 70Hz caused by the complex crossover. This would contribute to the suckout phenomena.

Also there will always be a discontinuity between a dynamic bottom end and a dipole midrange/bass no matter what dipole speaker you are dealing with. Anyone with Martin Logans with a dynamic bottom end will tell you this. Even the IRS-V had issues when it was reviewed in Stereophile or Absolute sound, but if you are willing to live with this then I think the benefits outweigh the limitations and is why people are attracted to this type of speaker design.

Also the RS-1B and RS-2B will have these issues as well but Stereophile said that the RS-2B's were a very underrated speaker when it reviewed the RS-1B many years ago

regards

 

[kmanusa]

The last pair of Kappa 9's I saw in Australia were selling for $3,500. I paid $2000 for my RS4.5's and have not regretted it. Also a swept sinewave test on the bass section of my speakers shows a 2 db drop at around 70Hz caused by the complex crossover. This would contribute to the suckout phenomena.

Also there will always be a discontinuity between a dynamic bottom end and a dipole midrange/bass no matter what dipole speaker you are dealing with. Anyone with Martin Logans with a dynamic bottom end will tell you this. Even the IRS-V had issues when it was reviewed in Stereophile or Absolute sound, but if you are willing to live with this then I think the benefits outweigh the limitations and is why people are attracted to this type of speaker design.

Also the RS-1B and RS-2B will have these issues as well but Stereophile said that the RS-2B's were a very underrated speaker when it reviewed the RS-1B many years ago

regards

I also find the bass end of the 4.5 to be down at 70 Hz although I had a broader (and slightly deeper) dip that extended up higher. Most folks assume there is a problem with the lower mids of the 4.5 but I think the hole is in the bass system. The broadness of the suckout in my situation may also be due to my using a 24 dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley external crossover rather than the 6 dB/octave crossover recommended by Infinity. The 70 Hz hole remains with either. Room effects also cloud the issue a bit.

I can crossover the EMIM and woofer at frequencies up to 440 Hz using any slope and the bass suckout remains.

Rabbit, have you tried EQ at 70Hz to correct the dip?

 

[Manuel64]

I think a lot has to do with the way the speaker and room work together. You can't expect an IRS to work well in a tiny or even average size room, it was intended for big spaces. And most of these big Infinities require a lot of careful system matching, possible biamping, and room treatment. A good room always helps.

So ranking the speakers is kind of a relative thing; the answer is always contingent on a lot of things including, as has been pointed out, people's preference in sound and music.

I totally agree with the statement above.

I've always loved the Rens 90 and I think that it represents the best bang for the buck in Infinity speakers. Yes, they don't have the bass output that some of it's bigger brothers have, but the clear mids and highs are as good as gets, for a moderate sized speaker. Jazz and strings are especially good on the Rens. In a small to mid sized room, they are hard to beat. For bigger rooms that are for music listening, I like the RSIIb's. For home theater in mid to large sized rooms, ported Infinity speakers work best. There is no such thing as the best speaker, for all applications.

 

[Ken Boyd]

I would never pay that much for a pair of Kappa 9's. But I would like a pair of RS4.5's but they still cost to much as I can buy pairs of RS-1b's for less than what you pay for 4.5's. They just didn't make many of the 4.5's and I can't seem to find a pair yet that is complete with controller and in good shape for a reasonable price.

 

[Nikkoholic]

General statement: For me, most speakers at this level and up sound pleasing, despite whatever variation in sound they may have. It is only when you put them next to each other that you really start to notice the unique nature of each; whether it is a positive aspect or negative.

One thing is for certain, Infinity did a good job of providing a speaker to suit many persons taste. Interestingly looking back at their history of premium products; their constant change in drivers and technology gave us (vintage Infinity fans) a nice variety of speakers to choose from...all of them pleasing most of us in some way. I can't think of many speaker companies from that era that provided so many different types of speakers...although I'm sure someone will enlighten me if there were.

 

[Ken Boyd]

I meant that as a compliment. As I pointed out earlier that I like everyone of the models I referred to and I think everyone of them are great speakers, and leave me grinning each and every time I listen to them. I have such a hard time decieding which ones to listen to. Like I stated early I have what I think of as my favorite speakers (a pair of RS-1b's and a pair of RS-1's) in a spare bedroom under cover while I have my Kappa 8's, Kappa 9's and a pair of QLS-1's all in a row in my living room and I switch the cables from one pair to another every couple of nights. Even though I have my favorites I still like the others very much, they are better than anything I ever owned before I got hooked on this adiction! I just recently purchased another pair of speakers and as much as I hate to have them in the storage room if I bring them out I would have to put a couple of pairs in the room because of their size. But what little I did listen to I have to say I was quite surprised as I didn't expect them to be as good as my infinity pairs.

 

[Albikes]

I enjoy reading everybody's impression, likes, and dislikes of the different models. I started with the K9's, moved up to tube power for the mids/highs, and then started tracking down spare drivers. This led me to find a pair of K8's, and now TWO sets of K7's. These RS Kappa series speakers are what I will use for home theater as the "stereo" system went to a new level with the IRS family.

My two channel system has evolved into using the IRS Deltas, a Canary 906 preamp, and Canary 160 mono blocks power amps for the EMIM and EMITs, with a big Parasound HCA-3500 for the passive crossovers and woofs. It's pretty awesome to listen to. Soundstage, imaging, detail of instrument, and blending of frequences high to low is better on these than anything I've listened to before.

Do I want more? Yes I do. What it will be I can not tell yet.

Either a set of Beta's or customized Beta hybrids is what I'm thinking. I would like to build a set of EMI mid/high/mid panels with an LEMIM top and bottom, then two EMIM's, one above and one below the bottom and top LEMIM's, with an EMIT and SEMIT centered on the panel. The woofer columns will blend highs and lows to the side, while the mid/high/mid panels will have their center spot a little closer to ear level while seated for listening sessions. I think I will build new high quality crossovers as Maxamillion has done.

Comments and ideas are welcomed.

Albikes

 

[rabbit]

I would never pay that much for a pair of Kappa 9's. But I would like a pair of RS4.5's but they still cost to much as I can buy pairs of RS-1b's for less than what you pay for 4.5's. They just didn't make many of the 4.5's and I can't seem to find a pair yet that is complete with controller and in good shape for a reasonable price.

In Australia you just don't have the same choices as you do in the US when it comes to 2nd hand gear. There just isn't that much kit around when it comes to the more exotic Infinity models and to import it from the US in one piece would cost an arm and a leg

The last set of RS-1B's that sold in Australia on Ebay went for around $6000 and they weren't the best condition either !! Another pair of RS4.5's went for $3000 !!

regards

 

[rabbit]

I also find the bass end of the 4.5 to be down at 70 Hz although I had a broader (and slightly deeper) dip that extended up higher. Most folks assume there is a problem with the lower mids of the 4.5 but I think the hole is in the bass system. The broadness of the suckout in my situation may also be due to my using a 24 dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley external crossover rather than the 6 dB/octave crossover recommended by Infinity. The 70 Hz hole remains with either. Room effects also cloud the issue a bit.

I can crossover the EMIM and woofer at frequencies up to 440 Hz using any slope and the bass suckout remains.

Rabbit, have you tried EQ at 70Hz to correct the dip?

You'd best bypass the low frequency crossover and drive the woofers directly with some eq.

regards

 

[kmanusa]

You'd best bypass the low frequency crossover and drive the woofers directly with some eq.

regards

But isn't the low frequency crossover part of the Watkins woofer system? Don't you need the tuned circuit formed with large caps and inductors to properly feed the 2 Watkins voice coils?