Beta's, QLS1's , Ren 90's

[cdfac]

it is indeed interesting to hear how different listening impressions can be. i always wonder how much of it is equipment/room differences and how much is preference. for example, i did not find the Kappa 9's, recapped QLS1's, and RS1b's to be separated by a large amount, unlike Ken. the QLS were the best integrated of the three and had the best bass (if occasionally too much), but the 1b's certainly imaged the best and i've had a hard time imagining how you can get all that much better from, say, 200Hz on up. the Kappas, OTOH, had a transparency and airiness the QLS1's couldn't quite match, but i always had difficulty getting flat response from the midbass on down. still, i would like to hear the 9's again with the electronics i have now. also, i really need to hear an IRS and Renaissance pair!

 

[Ken Boyd]

it is indeed interesting to hear how different listening impressions can be. i always wonder how much of it is equipment/room differences and how much is preference. for example, i did not find the Kappa 9's, recapped QLS1's, and RS1b's to be separated by a large amount, unlike Ken. the QLS were the best integrated of the three and had the best bass (if occasionally too much), but the 1b's certainly imaged the best and i've had a hard time imagining how you can get all that much better from, say, 200Hz on up. the Kappas, OTOH, had a transparency and airiness the QLS1's couldn't quite match, but i always had difficulty getting flat response from the midbass on down. still, i would like to hear the 9's again with the electronics i have now. also, i really need to hear an IRS and Renaissance pair!

I would still trade my Kappa's for a IRS Beta, the offer stands!! Separation by large amounts now is very hard to acheive so I work at small amounts. Small amounts of inprovement to me is great when they already sound good. I am sure they would all sound better if I could get some really good amps. But I would be inclined to beleive that I would still prefer them in the same order with better amps. And I would still tend to think that the Kappa's would fall short of any of the others on the list that Nik posted other than perhaps the Ren 90's. But from other Threads some people with the Ren 90's think they are the best all around speaker that Infinity made, much to my disagreement. I don't know how anyone can claim that against the likes of the IRS V, or Gamma's, Beta's RS-1's or even the QLS-1's or QLS-2's for that matter. My QLS-2's when sitting down sound as good to me as my QLS-1's, they sound very good to me. Sometimes maybe because we own a pair they tend to sound better than what someone else has, who knows.

On a side note, did you give up on your RS-1b's? I noticed you now list a pair of RSIIb's? Perhaps you didn't like the large twin towers. I know you stated your dislike of the bass compared to your QLS-1's. They do take up a lot of room and I have put both my pairs in an extra room for storage for the time being as I moved in some other speakers for the time being to listen to. I look forward to the day that I moved to my other house so I can have them all set up for listening when I want.

 

[kevinmcc]

I'm thinking about purchasing some Ren 90's. Do you think the midrange is "open" sounding, as the others you own?
Thanks

 

[Nikkoholic]

I like everything about the Ren 90 except the bass. Like the size, design, low power requirements, quality build. Highs might be a little bright but that is an easy thing to correct. The bass is a killer for me though. Could a pair of subs (L and R) be run with these to compensate or is that bad audiophile?

 

[marantzfan]

I like everything about the Ren 90 except the bass. Like the size, design, low power requirements, quality build. Highs might be a little bright but that is an easy thing to correct. The bass is a killer for me though. Could a pair of subs (L and R) be run with these to compensate or is that bad audiophile?

Not bad at all.

Btw, my real agenda here is to hear your impressions of the RSIIIB's with the others. I own some RSIIIB's and they are the only 'big(ger)' Infinities I have ever heard; kinda curious how they stack up against some of the giants.

 

[Inspiribomb]

The Ren 90's do a lot of things well. They struggle to produce slamming deep bass, although in my room they produce good response down to 26 Hz. I use a pair of NHT W1 subwoofer to fill in the low end. They aren't IRS, but they deliver a lot of the high-end Infinity performance, and I doubt that a pair of Kappa 9's would outperform them in any regard (when used in conjunction with subs).

I've heard Betas, and they weren't to my liking considering the size, cost and amplifier requirement. I've never heard QLS-1's, but am fairly certain that in my room, the Ren 90's would be the best performer, namely because of their size. In a larger room, I'd guess that would not be the case.

 

[Nikkoholic]

Not bad at all.

Btw, my real agenda here is to hear your impressions of the RSIIIB's with the others. I own some RSIIIB's and they are the only 'big(ger)' Infinities I have ever heard; kinda curious how they stack up against some of the giants.

I'll do it, but it may be a week or so. Subscribe to the thread and I'll add it soon. I'm curious too. Considering what I paid for the RSIIIb's they better come in last (just kidding; kind of).

 

[kmanusa]

I have heard the IRS, RS-1, RS-4.5, RS-IIa, IRS Beta and other Infinities, at various times over the past 30 years; I have owned the RS-IIa and now own the RS-4.5. I would say the 4.5 is better than the RS-IIa but bear in mind I never owned the IIa and 4.5 at the same time nor had them in the same room. I could never get the bass to integrate well with the mids on my RS-IIa but that was long ago and in a very different room than I have the 4.5 now. (I also owned the Monitor IIa for a short time back in the 1970s and really liked them but one of them was defective and I had to return the speakers.)

Of the Infinity speakers I have heard but not owned, the IRS was the best but I heard it well set up in a very large room, the kind for which it was designed. The RS-1bs I've heard were second to the IRS but I heard these in different, less good sounding rooms. The Betas I heard once and thought they were pretty good but the room I heard them in was not so great and the ancillary equipment maybe not the best either.

I think a lot has to do with the way the speaker and room work together. You can't expect an IRS to work well in a tiny or even average size room, it was intended for big spaces. And most of these big Infinities require a lot of careful system matching, possible biamping, and room treatment. A good room always helps.

So ranking the speakers is kind of a relative thing; the answer is always contingent on a lot of things including, as has been pointed out, people's preference in sound and music.

 

[bastek]

I really like Infinity's last IRS's, Epsilon, Sigma and Omega. I own the Sigma ( larger Ren. 90 with 12" woofers) and they do everything right except maybe some missing punch at upper bass-lower mids, but i think that was Infinity's choice to avoid the muddy or thumpy character of some speakers. I can easily correct that if i want to, bypassing the 1Ohm 15W resistor going to the 6.5" mid-bass driver (in the back of the post panel). Also, the amount of stuffing in those sealed cabs can make a small difference to the sound of the bass perceived. Due to their large baffles they lack pinpoint imaging (my slim towers image better) but they offer a large soundstage and lifelike lush sound. I find them easier to position than my other speakers, being sealed to 600Hz, semi OB on Emims, dipole on Emits. Overall these are my favorite speakers (over my other commercial or DIYs), until i find a pair of Epsilons.

 

[SuperKris]

The Ren 90's do a lot of things well. They struggle to produce slamming deep bass, although in my room they produce good response down to 26 Hz. I use a pair of NHT W1 subwoofer to fill in the low end. They aren't IRS, but they deliver a lot of the high-end Infinity performance, and I doubt that a pair of Kappa 9's would outperform them in any regard (when used in conjunction with subs).

I've heard Betas, and they weren't to my liking considering the size, cost and amplifier requirement. I've never heard QLS-1's, but am fairly certain that in my room, the Ren 90's would be the best performer, namely because of their size. In a larger room, I'd guess that would not be the case.

I always thought the Renaissance 90, like most infinity's, needed huge amps. They do have 4 speakers. Emits ans emims arnt that simple to drive, and they still have a power hungry watkins right?

So i would gues these things would need a monoblock or atleast a very powerfull power amp, or maybe 2 of those.

I wonder how well the Renaissance 90 would work on a normal but powerfull intergrated.

 

[Nikkoholic]

I really like Infinity's last IRS's, Epsilon, Sigma and Omega. I own the Sigma ( larger Ren. 90 with 12" woofers) and they do everything right except maybe some missing punch at upper bass-lower mids,

Sounds like the Sigma may be just what I'm look for to upgrade from a Ren 90... kind of forgot about that speaker. Anyone know how the Sigma and Omega compare; ever heard them side by side?

One thing that is disturbing. The specs for the Ren 90 dip down to 27 hz and the Omega is 28 Hz and the Sigma 30 Hz. Is the Ren 90 just not balanced on the low end? This is an area I don't understand, until my ears hear it.

 

[Nikkoholic]

I always thought the Renaissance 90, like most infinity's, needed huge amps. They do have 4 speakers. Emits ans emims arnt that simple to drive, and they still have a power hungry watkins right?

So i would gues these things would need a monoblock or atleast a very powerfull power amp, or maybe 2 of those.

I wonder how well the Renaissance 90 would work on a normal but powerfull intergrated.

Sorry, didn't quite come out right. I do bi-amp with an active crossover on my Ren 90's and have 220w/ch on top and same on bottom. I don't have to push the amps at all to get large sound. It just happens that was my set up I was using on the QLS1's.

 

[MrLegit]

I would agree that the RSIIb look the goods and they will sound sweeter or smoother in the mid frequency but the Kappa 9's just sing along with a complete sound spectrum covering all frequencies,where the RSIIb will lack some what in the mid bass where compensations would have to be made with external eq's comprimising the signal path not mentioning taking away quality sound.You simply cant take a driver out of its comfort zone to cover a frequency you dont have to begin with.Doing this just compramises the speaker and takes away its natural frequency range it was designed to represent.For example crossing the bass at a higher frequency will take away bass not to mention take it out of tune with the enclosure volume and on the other end taking a mid down to the upper bass frequencies just makes it sound not as silky and smooth not to mention the imaging you lose.Mid bass is so important,just look at the Delta/Gamma,its L-Emim has the same surface area as a 12" driver.
Flick the switch to extended bass on the Kappa 9's.Of course you need the amp power behind these speakers to do this.This is in stock formation that I am talking about.
Now we will talk about a set of kappa 9's that have been hotted up.High quality caps,self wound inductors and specific speaker cable to match certain
frequencies.Basically an all out assault.No eq's or active crossovers.They sound awsome.
Of course there is better speakers in the Infinity family but the Kappa 9's are not to be wreckened with.Delta/Gamma and of course the Beta take it to a complete new playing field so I think comparing the RSIIb to a set of Kappa 9's,Delta/Gamma or Beta in my opinion are strong words.I would compare them closer to a hotted up pair of Kappa 8's from personal experience.

 

[MrLegit]

By saying this I dont mean that Kappa 9's are the holy grail,but when comparing prices they certainly do a damn good job.My Delta/Gamma sound better in Delta mode but only in the upper frequency.The upper's sound silkier and smoother (basically more correct).In Gamma mode they walk all over the Kappa 9's by far.The servo controlled bass response just makes the speakers sound even and more balanced between highs and lows,blending everything togeter.Comparisons I have done come from personal experience using the same amplification,cables and source material,and all comparisons were done in the same room.Comparisons based on the complete Kappa family and the Delta/Gamma.

 

[Ken Boyd]

I still want to trade my Kappa 9's for a pair of IRS Beta's, I would be willing to trade straight across, with no extra cash, and I love rosewood.

I tell you what, I would throw in a pair of Kappa 8's as well and a pair of QLS-5's, thats three pairs of speakers for the one pair! As long as you pay the shipping!

 

[MrLegit]

Thats not fair!

 

[beemer]

I still want to trade my Kappa 9's for a pair of IRS Beta's, I would be willing to trade straight across, with no extra cash, and I love rosewood.

I tell you what, I would throw in a pair of Kappa 8's as well and a pair of QLS-5's, thats three pairs of speakers for the one pair! As long as you pay the shipping!

No one in their right mind would do that trade. Perhaps a basket case set of Betas, however by the time you got them up you'd spend more than you would for a pair that was 100%. Beta servo box/crossover alone is a $1600 item fully functional.

Paul

 

[MrLegit]

I know for a fact that if the accelerometers fail in a control driver(Delta/Gamma/Beta or even IRS-IRSV)you are in trouble as there is no off the shelf accelerometers that are compatable with the servo controller.If your put in this predicament the Gamma's are as good as a Delta will ever be.A Beta is totally worthless as it doesnt have a passive crossover to fall back on neither does the IRS or IRS-V.
I have gone to extrodinary lengths devising an accelerometer to work with the servo controller just to have spares.Let me tell you that it was costly and timely,not so much in the parts department but research and experimentation,but they work perfectly and I must add that the accelerometers even have a better response than the original.As they get old the accelerometers fade away and response and accuracy let you down resulting in a slower response output of the driver,sounds more like multiple subs.This is because the response time of the accelerometer cant tell the servo controller to correct the motion of the driver or phase switch of the signal quick enough resulting in a non accurate bass.

 

[cdfac]

I have gone to extrodinary lengths devising an accelerometer to work with the servo controller just to have spares.Let me tell you that it was costly and timely,not so much in the parts department but research and experimentation,but they work perfectly and I must add that the accelerometers even have a better response than the original.

i sense a new thread here!

 

[MrLegit]

Yes.