Bookshelves? Towers? Panels? Help me set up new living room :)

[arpod]

I received my LRS yesterday. I could hardly wait to get home to (carefully) unpack them and hook them up.

I have mixed feelings.

Basically everything I read is true. They need a lot of power, they lack bass and dynamics, they're very sensitive to positioning, hard to integrate with a sub, and they have great imaging/staging.

First off they look great but even the little LRS have an imposing visual preference. My JBL L112s are big but they're lower and they look retro and fit nicely with mid century furnishings.

Sonically, my first impressions were very positive. They sounded OPEN and clear and surprisingly fun listening to the Clash. I had the sub turned up pretty strong. More listening.

Man these panels need a lot of power. I tripped the protection circuit on the Vidar a few times and it didn't even seem that loud. Brought up my SPL meter and it was actually a little louder than I thought. I think the lack of dynamics fools me into thinking if I turn it up a little more I'll "feel" the music a little more which is the case with most speakers. Not these. I don't know if it's the limitations of the amp or the speakers or both but after a certain point turning it up just makes it sound more congested.

I tried for a while to dial the sub in but after switching back to the JBLs I realized the sub wasn't going to perform any miracles. Maybe if I had two matching subs and placed the LRS right in front or next to them or sitting on top of them but I don't and that's not exactly an elegant solution. If this were a man cave or dedicated listening room I'd try it. But it's not.

I eventually turned the sub off and the volume down and then they seemed to come in to their own a bit. At higher volumes it just seemed like it's all midrange. Like the vocals and guitars were turned up and the drums and bass were turned down. At lower volumes the sound is more balanced and very immersive. Reminded me of using Stax headphones. Very analytical with sound coming from everywhere. As in "that shaker is coming from bottom right, that synth pad is floating in from top left..." So that's pretty cool. Close your eyes and the speakers disappear and the sound is very 3d.

I tried different set ups, spread wide, close together, tweeters in, tweeters out.. I generally liked the tweeters in a little better but ended up with them out and the panels pretty close to one another and sitting pretty close. That way I could try and hear as much low end as possible.

The lack of low end is really an issue. It feels like all the rhythmic information of the track is missing. I switch back to the JBLs and we go from 3d to 2d but the bass line is there, the kick drum is there, the dynamics are back. The LRS feel like a cool effect, like putting on 3d glasses to watch a movie at home. It's a neat trick but ultimately, 2d is good enough.

The LRS do some cool things with the sound stage and sound very detailed and open but ultimately the "tone" is a little weird and the lack of dynamics is a deal breaker. Also the power demand is annoying. I moved the LRS into the bedroom and they actually sound pretty good being powered by a Bluesound Powernode. I'm going to keep burning them in there. The whole class A/B vs class d debate is stupid. I have tube amps, class a/b and class d. They all sound good and a decent class d amp can sound great. These speakers obviously want a quality, high power class d amp. I'd like to hear what a powerful class d amp like peach tree 500 could do for these.

I read somewhere that the LRS are a toy. I agree. Not to say that they aren't serious speakers but more like how having a Mazda Miata is a toy. The LRS are really good at what they do but they're not daily drivers. They're an indulgence. They're a second or third pair of speakers.

As an aside, I left the little REL t5i plugged in when I went back to the JBLs and I really like it. Who knew an 8" sub could help out 12" drivers so much. I turned the crossover down pretty low and they just tighten up the bass ever so slightly. Counterintuitive because if anything I thought the JBLs were a little boomy and bass heavy but the REL just filled in the lowest notes so that it actually sounds more solid and less boomy now.

 

[JoeESP9]

Important message: Magnepan's need a minimum 40 hour break in. They sound very different when broken in. The same applies to all the other planars and ESL's I have experience with.

As long as you run them full range you'll get bass that's close to what 6" woofers give. Once you remove the bass from them they will play louder with much better dynamics. You can also get by with less power that way.

With all panels and open baffles bigger is always better. For solid response to 30Hz or so you need panels the size of E-Stats. I once had a pair of Acoustat Model 3's. The room they were in was perfect for them they reproduced the 32Hz opening organ pedal in Thus Spake Zarathustra with serious authority.

 

[arpod]

Important message: Magnepan's need a minimum 40 hour break in. They sound very different when broken in. The same applies to all the other planars and ESL's I have experience with.

As long as you run them full range you'll get bass that's close to what 6" woofers give. Once you remove the bass from them they will play louder with much better dynamics. You can also get by with less power that way.

That's kind of my feeling about them, they sound like a 5" or 6" bookshelf with giant tweeters and so so bass.

With all panels and open baffles bigger is always better. For solid response to 30Hz or so you need panels the size of E-Stats. I once had a pair of Acoustat Model 3's. The room they were in was perfect for them they reproduced the 32Hz opening organ pedal in Thus Spake Zarathustra with serious authority.

I think .7s would be much better in here and ideally something even bigger but that's all too much visually and price wise. I'm sure the full experience is amazing if you have the space for it and the money.

I'm going to keep burning them in in my bedroom and figure out a way to cut some of the low frequencies. I've gotten mixed advice, some say run them full range some say they open up a bit if you relieve them of low end duties so I'll try both. The thing with the low end is that it's not the frequencies that are covered by the sub that are missing it's the frequencies just above that that are lacking. It's like the mix engineer turned down all any instruments that sit in the 80hz - 300hz range. You can hear that it's all there it's just a little low in the mix compared to vocals and lead instruments.

REL seems to design their subs to be fed from the amplifier although there is a single low level RCA I could feed signal to from my preamp. That way I can put an EQ (most likely a Schiit Loki - it's cheap, analogue and you can use it cut the lows) between the preamp and the power amp without messing up the signal to the REL.

 

[JoeESP9]

Something that most panels and OB's don't have is a mid base hump. It makes many speakers sound like they have better bass (Trump term. Fake Bass!) than they actually do. This is especially audible with smaller boxes. Compare the sound of an upright bass through panels/OB's to the sound of one through some boxes.

 

[Old Guy8]

That looks like a pretty large room. Is it over 500 sq ft? I'm not surprised that someone could run out of power and find bass challenging. It's all relative, to expectations and budget.

I have a 400 sq ft basement room. REL recommended one or two i9 subs to mate with my 1.7i Maggie's, in my room. When I talked to Magnepan about RELs. He said thier dealers found one or two i7 a satisfying match. I didn't end up buying a sub for them.

Do give them plenty of time to break in. Do try them up close to your sitting position, too.
Congrats.

 

[sqlsavior]

The thing with the low end is that it's not the frequencies that are covered by the sub that are missing it's the frequencies just above that that are lacking. It's like the mix engineer turned down all any instruments that sit in the 80hz - 300hz range.

Not to deny your experience, but that doesn't sound at all like Maggies to me. Maybe they need more break-in? Maybe you are missing your mid-bass hump?

With your open floor plan, you have the potential for great bass, with few of the nodes and excess tonnage that plague smaller boxy rooms. But you also seem to be listening at very demanding volumes. Where is your sub located? What frequency were you crossing it over at? And how many dBs were you listening at when you were surprised by the reading?

For me, it's a different kind of listening than I once did, with my DIY Klipschorn copies, more about sounding natural than sounding impressive, though sometimes I miss impressive. You have 60 days with them, I assume?

 

[jazzmans]

...

With all panels and open baffles bigger is always better. For solid response to 30Hz or so you need panels the size of E-Stats. I once had a pair of Acoustat Model 3's. The room they were in was perfect for them they reproduced the 32Hz opening organ pedal in Thus Spake Zarathustra with serious authority.

This needs to be repeated ad absurdium every time someone says they're looking at .7 or LRS,
These are great 'teasers', but you need AT LEAST 1.7 sized panels for the true magic, and personally, I think the 3. is the killer model in the series.

I run mine full range, WITH subwoofers.

Love love LOVE my 1.6 QR and 2.5R. That true ribbon tweeter really is the finest transducer I've ever heard, I only wish my pair were the additional foot in length tweeters. sitting on the ground or in a beanbag, my ears are below the bottom of the ribbons

I feed mine 4-600 wpc, and they consume every bit of it.

 

[arpod]

Something that most panels and OB's don't have is a mid base hump. It makes many speakers sound like they have better bass (Trump term. Fake Bass!) than they actually do. This is especially audible with smaller boxes. Compare the sound of an upright bass through panels/OB's to the sound of one through some boxes.

This is an interesting point to bring up. I can hear what people are saying about "accurate, fast bass" vs "bass hump" but too me this is missing the point. That bass hump doesn't just fool you into thinking you have good bass, it also helps drive the music. The bass line is the underpinning of so many songs. The kick drums drives the rhythm. Having a strong mid bass is important for feeling the rhythm section. Also I can tell the difference between a bluetooth speaker with a bass hump and studio mains that can thump bass - accurately.

And finally, you have to consider what the artist was probably listening to playback on studio mains and making decisions based on being able to hear the bass loud and clear.

I'm not talking top 40 pop music or hard rock. Bjork's albums are a great example of recordings that sound really good, have a lot of interesting textures across the freq range but have a lot of information in the low end.

 

[arpod]

That looks like a pretty large room. Is it over 500 sq ft? I'm not surprised that someone could run out of power and find bass challenging. It's all relative, to expectations and budget.

I have a 400 sq ft basement room. REL recommended one or two i9 subs to mate with my 1.7i Maggie's, in my room. When I talked to Magnepan about RELs. He said thier dealers found one or two i7 a satisfying match. I didn't end up buying a sub for them.

Do give them plenty of time to break in. Do try them up close to your sitting position, too.
Congrats.

Yeah I guess the room is not that small. The LRS definitely sound more well suited to my bedroom which is probably the size of a small - med size listening room. They don't sound so anemic there. Also I think they're starting to break in a bit.

t7i would probably have been the better choice but i didn't want to spend the money and I liked the small size of the t5i. Paired with a pair of wharfedale dentons or these JBLs I have the say the t5i sounds great and has enough output for my needs.

 

[arpod]

Not to deny your experience, but that doesn't sound at all like Maggies to me. Maybe they need more break-in? Maybe you are missing your mid-bass hump?

With your open floor plan, you have the potential for great bass, with few of the nodes and excess tonnage that plague smaller boxy rooms. But you also seem to be listening at very demanding volumes. Where is your sub located? What frequency were you crossing it over at? And how many dBs were you listening at when you were surprised by the reading?

For me, it's a different kind of listening than I once did, with my DIY Klipschorn copies, more about sounding natural than sounding impressive, though sometimes I miss impressive. You have 60 days with them, I assume?

I agree! The bass with the JBLs + REL is probably the best I've heard in any of my systems. It extends low, is impactful but it's tight not boomy. Great texture and tone in bass guitars, kick drums and toms.

The loudest I usually listen is around 95 on the peaks so average high 80s low 90s at the listening position. That's loud for me, I usually listen a couple clicks below that finding the right volume depending on the track.

Sub is located against the left wall to the side of the left speakers. I did the walk around method to determine placement.

For the LRS i was crossing around 80hz, experimenting below and above that. For the JBLs I have the sub crossed quite about lower, around 40-50hz. The REL doesn't actually have frequency markers just a minimum 30hz and maximum 120hz.

The reading was around 85-90db on the peaks so not that crazy.

Also you're totally right, it's a different listening experience. What the Maggies lack in bass they make up for in creating a large soundscape that extends beyond the room. whereas the JBLs, the sounds doesn't seems to be coming from that far beyond the speakers.

Not planning on returning them yet. They're really cool pieces of audiophilia that took forever to get here. I got them in white and oak which is a somewhat less common. So if anything I'll try and sell them one day but for now I'm still having fun listening to them burn in and tinkering with them.

 

[SoCal Sam]

Gave a like because of effort put into showing listening room.

 

[arpod]

This needs to be repeated ad absurdium every time someone says they're looking at .7 or LRS,
These are great 'teasers', but you need AT LEAST 1.7 sized panels for the true magic, and personally, I think the 3. is the killer model in the series.

I run mine full range, WITH subwoofers.

Love love LOVE my 1.6 QR and 2.5R. That true ribbon tweeter really is the finest transducer I've ever heard, I only wish my pair were the additional foot in length tweeters. sitting on the ground or in a beanbag, my ears are below the bottom of the ribbons

I feed mine 4-600 wpc, and they consume every bit of it.

I'd read that the LRS are "teasers" but I had to hear them irl to really understand that. No doubt a big pair of Maggies with subs would sound incredible here but then I'd have a very different kind of home. One day I'll have a house with dedicated man cave/listening room and loads of money and then I'll probably just get Klipschhorns haha. I'm sure the big maggies sound incredible though.

The LRS area really interesting, when you switch to them after hearing something else they sound weird but after about 30 sec my ears adjust and they sound cool. the brain is weird like that.

 

[Old Guy8]

If your listening with peaks at 95dbs, that's way above what I listen to. My jazz listening is peaks south of 75dbs. I have read that Maggie's can experience "slap" where lowest notes at high volume can induce noises. What's the possibility of damage if overdriven? I could'nt tell you.
My 1.7i will not do punch in your stomach bass of a cone woofer. It's a different bass experience. Maybe the larger Maggies are different. Don't know.

 

[arpod]

If your listening with peaks at 95dbs, that's way above what I listen to. My jazz listening is peaks south of 75dbs. I have read that Maggie's can experience "slap" where lowest notes at high volume can induce noises. What's the possibility of damage if overdriven? I could'nt tell you.
My 1.7i will not do punch in your stomach bass of a cone woofer. It's a different bass experience. Maybe the larger Maggies are different. Don't know.

I guess I like to "feel" the music. 95 is very rare though. Usual loud listening is in the 80s.

 

[RossW]

With big Maggies (I had 3.3R) you can definitely feel the bass, but with all the usual caveats on placement and sweet spot. I sold mine because even though they were awesome in the sweet spot, they were just fair everywhere else (especially in the bass department). You can get good bass with Maggies but the room needs to do some pretty heavy lifting.

 

[coonmanx]

After reading this entire thread I can't help but wonder how the Maggies would sound playing at the same time as the JBL's. I love to experiment so it might be interesting. Keep the sub out of it and run two separate amps, one for the Maggies and one for the JBL's. Could maybe run two amps off of one preamp. Best of both worlds or a bad idea? I don't know...

Just a thought. Back in about 1983 I had a roommate who tried Maggies out but didn't stick with them. He ended up with Cornwalls in the end. But I do understand their appeal...

 

[arpod]

So after burning the Maggies in over the weekend, they're starting to grow on me. They've definitely opened up a bit and the low frequencies aren't quite as veiled. I spread them as far as the room would allow and I'm getting a really nice enveloping sound. Still, I was listening to some contemporary Terry Riley and the bass drum that drives the music is there but not really driving the music.

Today I moved them back into the main room, positioned them wider than I had them before, with the tweeters on the inside and paying a little extra attention to getting the sub dialed in. Big improvement from the first go around. I think I was just too excited and cranked them a little too loud when I first got them. They aren't meant for that. Today they are sounding pretty sweet but I'm still unsure how I feel about the dynamics. Listening to classical music, the JBLs really highlight the touch and feel of the orchestra / soloist and make the music sound alive dynamically vs the Maggies which really make the music come alive spacially if not dynamically. Interesting stuff. I'm so behind on work now.

 

[hjames]

Looking at your diagram, I gather you have a listening space at the left, with the sofa, and the room on the right is more a dining room.
My upstairs is a bit different, but my speaker placement is about 1/3 of the way into the room - not near a wall.
I've had DCM Timeframe speakers, couple different (older) maggies, even Von Schweikert VR4 - and all of them have a rear facing tweeter so they are somewhat bipolar.
In your room I'd consider turning the left side 90 degrees clockwise and put the speakers at the edge of the opening between the two rooms.
Let them back-fill the dining room and put your sofa along the window wall.
You could even enjoy the speakers during dinner parties or the like.
Just a thought.

 

[arpod]

Looking at your diagram, I gather you have a listening space at the left, with the sofa, and the room on the right is more a dining room.
My upstairs is a bit different, but my speaker placement is about 1/3 of the way into the room - not near a wall.
I've had DCM Timeframe speakers, couple different (older) maggies, even Von Schweikert VR4 - and all of them have a rear facing tweeter so they are somewhat bipolar.
In your room I'd consider turning the left side 90 degrees clockwise and put the speakers at the edge of the opening between the two rooms.
Let them back-fill the dining room and put your sofa along the window wall.
You could even enjoy the speakers during dinner parties or the like.
Just a thought.

That's not a bad idea except those windows are sliding glass doors (with curtains) that open on to a deck with a beautiful view so I need to keep that space clear. As I've been adding furniture and decorations the sound of the room is improving. It's actually sounding pretty darn good right now. Next steep is wall to wall carpeting haha. I used to record in a room that was similar to this one but bigger and carpeted and it sounded incredible.