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Building Again--Marblewood 6V6 SEUL

Further information on this build.

First, just a couple of comments on components beyond that already shared. The 0.47uF coupler film caps are CDE 930 series metallized polypropylene construction with tinned copper leads. I have not used these before and decided to try them as an alternative to my usual Illinois Capacitor MPW series metallized polypropylene caps.

The electrolytic bypass capacitors for the 6V6 and the 12AU7 cathodes are Nichicon audio grade caps.

Interestingly, the Marblewood design doesn't use grid stopper resistors for the 12AU7 driver. They are shown (10K) in his 'universal pre-amp' design and I wondered at this, but didn't put them in here. I will do so if there seem to be any related operating problems (such as RF intrusion or other instability). (Thoughts, anyone?....)

OPERATING VOLTAGES

The web description has relatively little information on expected operating voltages, so I'm sharing what I measured once I had the amp set up the way I wanted, mainly through adjusting what the original build shows as "Rd," the main B+ dropping resistor after the rectifier tube. I used a Hammond 273CZ power transformer I had on hand for the build with different specs than the original build shown on line and a 5AR4 rectifier. This PT is 650 VAC 173mA center tapped for the high voltage section with a 6.3V center tapped heater winding (CT unused here) and a 5V heater winding for the rectifier tube.

As mentioned, I ended up using Rd value of 750 ohms (743 ohms measured) to obtain operating voltages downstream for the 6V6's close to the "optimized" conditions used in the original build, based on Matt's detailed study of 6V6 operation and use of the specified Edcor output transformers.

The indicator lamp is a 6V 50mA miniature bulb powered off the 6.3VAC heater circuit and inserted in a fixture originally containing an NE2 neon lamp.

These are the measured voltages from this set up:

AC Line voltage: 120VAC, 0.62amp idle current

B+ voltages: 394VDC post 5AR4; 323VDC post "Rd" (71VDC drop at 743 Ohms yields 95mA total current draw and 6.8W dissipation across the resistor); 312V post filter choke; 303V at output transformers; 301V at 12AU7 plate supplies.

6V6 voltages: 294VDC at plates; 299V at screen grids; 17.6V and 18.1V at cathodes. This gives net voltages of 276VDC on the plates and 280VDC on the screens (by subtracting cathode voltages).

12AU7 voltages: 86.6/82.7 VDC plates; 2.6 VDC at both cathodes.

6V6 calculated current draw and dissipation (392 ohm cathode resistors): 45-46mA cathode current; assuming 5mA screen current draw, would put plate dissipation around 11.0 to 11.3W, or 92-94% of maximum data sheet value of 12W. High percentages would not seem to be unusual for a cathode bias pentode/beam tetrode design as this one is, particularly with UL screen taps, based on my limited experience.

At 276VDC, the plate voltages are right on what Matt describes as an optimized level of performance for the 6V6 in his paper.

After considerable time running, I'm not noticing excessive heat build up. I was wondering about this when I realized that the way I mounted the 'lay down' power transformer, there is a gap around the bottom bell because of the need to enlarge the cut out due the taper of the bottom bell (through which all the wires come in two holes). With the power transformer mounted slightly off the chassis by the laminate nuts, there is a natural 'chimney' for heat to flow up through the holes in the bottom plate, around the big dropping resistor (particularly) and out around the PT. So, I may have inadvertently prevented excessive under chassis build up this way without vent holes in the chassis top. Without this, some ventilation holes in the top are probably a good idea.

By the way, there is zero mechanical noise I can hear from the power transformer in this build. At 95mA B+ current and low demand on the 6.3V winding with only three tubes and the lamp, the transformer isn't stressed at all and runs pretty cool.

Further listening experience continues very positive as the amp plays in. After a while, I'll probably try rolling different brands of 12AU7 driver, or perhaps other types that this pre can accept, according to Matt, such as 12AX7 and 12AT7.

Dave
 
Back again after doing some more listening with this little amp (continues to be quite pleasant!). As mentioned, I wanted to do some measurement of the amp as part of the process and report that with some discussion. Recall that this is a low-output, single ended amp with little feedback used. So.....

POWER TEST
The amp generates 3.1W RMS before the onset of significant clipping at 1 kHz, single channel driven into an 8 ohm load. Prior to clipping, there is significant 2nd order harmonic distortion present with relatively little at the higher harmonics, which you would expect with this topology. As the designer notes, the 2nd order distortion would likely contribute to the pleasant sound of the amp, as it seems to do.

AUDIO MEASUREMENTS (all for Left channel as both were quite similar)

FREQUENCY RESPONSE

Here is the plot at 1W output. The low end is significantly rolled off below 100 Hz, but the high end looks quite good with only 1dB of roll off at 20 kHz. Low end roll off may be indicative of the output transformer limits, but given the specs of the Edcor unit used here, I would have expected somewhat better low end response down to 40 or 50 Hz.
MW Freq Resp 1W LEFT.jpg


DISTORTION
The THD+N level at 1 kHz is very close to what the designer measured in his evaluation of this amp (he measured 2.86%). As a class A single-ended device with little feedback, you'd expect a good bit of distortion, and you get it with second order distortion being the biggest contributor. I may try to get this one on the spectrum analyzer for a more continuous look at the various harmonics. Distortion levels are quite high in the low end where relative output is low.
MW THD+N v Freq 1W LEFT.jpg

At maximum output (3.1W RMS at 1 kHz), distortion is quite high, again as you would likely expect.
MW THD+N v Freq 3W LEFT.jpg

See below for some more thoughts on this.
 
My only prior experience with single-ended class A amps is with my build of the Blueglow/Kegger KT88 amp. That amp had quite a bit more power, used "Schade" feedback in an ultra-linear configuration. Frequency response was flat down to 20Hz without the kind of low-end roll off seen in this Marblewood amp and distortion was considerably lower than what I'm seeing in this one with fairly similar topology, save for the Schade feedback.

I wasn't really surprised at the distortion figures for the Marblewood amp. A look at the datasheets for the 6V6GT says that we should see up to several percent distortion when operated in Class A1 in either 'pentode' or triode mode (no data I could find for UL operation).

However, I was surprised at the relative lack of low-end response given how the amp sounds. I would not have predicted that much low end roll off from listening to music, but I'm wondering if it could be better.

Would love to hear any thoughts on these results, and particularly any ideas about how to improve the low-end frequency response for this little amp.

The UL configuration provides a bit of negative feedback, I presume. I'm particularly wondering if low end response and distortion would be improved with the use of Schade-type feedback, as in the BG/K KT88 design and other Kegger designs. Should I consider global negative feedback for what is otherwise a very simple, straightforward circuit? Other ideas (changes in coupling or cathode resistor caps, etc)?

One other thought: the connection between the 6V6 screen grid and the UL tap on the output transformer is direct, with no screen grid resistor. That means the screen grid is running at a somewhat higher voltage than the plate. I am seeing a screen grid resistor in most designs of this type. Should I consider adding one for each output tube in this one? Effect?

I don't mind experimenting on this one to see if any tweaks are possible, or perhaps I'm better off leaving it alone and just enjoying the sound?

Thanks!
Dave
 
It would be fairly easy to try GNF but you would have to either remove the cathode bypass cap on the AT7 or split the cathode resistor into two series resistors and bypass only one of them so the feedback could work against the other. Plate to plate would also be easy to try but again you would want to remove the cathode bypass cap on the 12AT7 to increase the plate impedance enough for the feedback to work properly. Based on building a SE 6V6 amp not long ago that used plate to plate feedback, I would vote to try it. Works very well on mine and the bass is really good.
 
Thanks for your response. Glad to hear your feedback based on your prior 6V6 SE work. It's easy enough to try the "Schade" plate-to-plate feedback, so I'll take out the 12AU7 driver cathode bypass cap and install, say, a 300K feedback resistor. Any thoughts on what this resistance value should properly be?
Dave
 
Just looked at the schematic. 200k-300k would likely be an ok place to start. From what I've seen the feedback resistor is often 4x-5x of the driver plate load so 300k would be on the strong side for feedback but it won't hurt anything. Just be sure about the power dissipation.

This is my amp. It has a 100k feedback resistor but the plate load is a CCS with a very high AC impedance.
6V6 to 6V6 r2j parafeed.jpg
 
UL operation doesn't provide sufficient feedback alone to tame IM in a pentode. I also think -7dB at 20Hz (1W) indicates a problem somewhere. Would be interesting to know whether it improves at 100mW.

Jack
 
I'll get to work on this next day or so and let you all know. Jack, the build is exactly as shown by the designer, but I agree it doesn't look quite right as measured. 7 dB down at 20 is well below what I would expect for the output transformer.

By IM you mean intermodulation distortion? I'm measuring total harmonic distortion in the tests and don't have a means to take on IM measurement at this point. Also going to try to get before/after on my spectrum analyzer, but have to figure out how to use the adapter. That'll be the learning exercise of the week!

Dave
 
Are we sure this testing is accurate? Those little 10W Edcor OT aren't a bass power house, but they aren't this bad. You would for sure hear this much roll off.
 
Thanks for your response. Glad to hear your feedback based on your prior 6V6 SE work. It's easy enough to try the "Schade" plate-to-plate feedback, so I'll take out the 12AU7 driver cathode bypass cap and install, say, a 300K feedback resistor. Any thoughts on what this resistance value should properly be?
Dave
300-400K would be a good starting point.
 
I am using those transformers in my SEUL that started life as the same designer's Lacewood amp. I didn't run FR sweeps, didn't have the equipment at the time. I did note they were a bit bass shy in original 6V6G form. They were eventually modified to run 6L6GC. The bass (by ear) was improved. Later adding GNFB made a remarkable improvement in bass. Not sure my old ears can reliably evaluate the highest points in frequency range, but for what I can hear they never sound harsh. They could sound harsh in the highs at times before the feedback. THD and square waves I did measure before and after. There was improvement noted. The amp now rivals my 60W MK3 mono blocks for bass thump and tightness at comparable volume levels. I don't have sweeps yet, I just recently downloaded ARTA to an old laptop and will backtrack a bit on a few projects to see what's really going on. I do expect a more even response than what you've found just based on what I'm hearing. First rainy weekend I'll get to it.
 
Are we sure this testing is accurate? Those little 10W Edcor OT aren't a bass power house, but they aren't this bad. You would for sure hear this much roll off.
Standard set up, used many times for testing power amplifiers. Repeated both channels--same results. Test instrument is HP8903B with Pete Millett software, which I have been using for years now. I do trust it, but I'll have another look before proceeding. Tried it with different driver (12AX7). Same results. 100K Level control in max (full CW) for the tests. But, as I mentioned above, I would have expected to hear that roll off more listening to the amp, which is why I went back and re-checked.

300-400K would be a good starting point.
I'll likely start with 300K and go from there. I know you have used this feedback scheme in several of your builds to good effect.
 
7 dB down at 20 is well below what I would expect for the output transformer.
Are these the Edcor GXSE10-5K? Edcor rates those for 40-18kHz. Went to their site just now and discovered all but one of the wideband "CX" series transformers are gone. I guess they've decided to focus on the guitar amp market for single-ended products.

Jack
 
I just looked at the Edcor site and all the SE outputs seem to be there. They have added the word "guitar" to some of the descriptions. I suppose that is intended to circumvent people buying them with hifi in mind and learning they have have limitations. Just some CYA I suppose.
 
Looks nice and I look forward to you listening impressions. I will have a closer look soon with the intent to build my own. I have always enjoyed your post and projects. Thanks for sharing.

Just my pet peave for project schematics. I really would like to ban the notion of “B+”. Why not call it what it is in volts? In this case you are good by providing the PS that shows 300Vdc going to the marked “B+” in the schematic, but so often it does not.

I find it amusing that people strain at gnats in such matters. What difference does it make, how it is labeled? We all know what it means.

Some people do still work with old radio equipment that has all three voltage sources, A, B, and C. So for some, it is still relevant.

Also, B+ was originally sourced by a battery, but even after many people had electricity (in the early 20s), B+ was now being supplied by a transformer power supply, and it was still called B+. If the designation was ever to changed, it was then!
 
I find it amusing that people strain at gnats in such matters. What difference does it make, how it is labeled? We all know what it means.
Sorry, @Dave451, for mentioning my peeve with the B+ designation that caused this unnecessary distraction.

Your build and testing continues to provide valuable information.
 
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I used the Edcore 10W OPT's in my sweep tube amp. The bass is decent.
Stephie did say the 15W OPT's tested and sounded better though if I remember right.
 
I re-measured frequency response and confirmed roll off after carefully checking the hook up. It's real (re: above scan).

I then disconnected the 47uF cathode bypass cap on the left channel side of the 12AU7 driver, leaving an un-bypassed 1.2K to ground at pin 8. I tacked in a 300K "Schade" resistor between the plate of the left channel 6V6 and pin 6 of the 12AU7. The 6V6 plate voltage was unchanged at 294VDC, but the 12AU7 plate voltage on that side raised from 85VDC to 105VDC.

Initial rough scan results showed that we gained 3-4dB at 20Hz, distortion was significantly reduced across the spectrum (by about 1.5% at 1 kHz) with some reduced gain for the channel, as you would expect. This looks promising, so I'll proceed with different values for the plate-plate feedback resistor.

Before I do, though, I'm wondering what changes may be needed for the driver stage beyond lifting the cathode bypass caps, particularly around the values of the 1.2K cathode resistors and the 100K plate supply resistors. Any thoughts?

Dave

schematic for reference:

1717872840423.png
 
Are these the Edcor GXSE10-5K? Edcor rates those for 40-18kHz. Went to their site just now and discovered all but one of the wideband "CX" series transformers are gone. I guess they've decided to focus on the guitar amp market for single-ended products.

Jack
Here is an Edcor GXSE-15-5k (8 Ohm) in a 300B I built. When I bought the GXSE's they were $40USD, now they are $80USD.

The GXSE are very underrated for bandwidth. Other people have reported good results exceeding 18kHz too.

1717876054904.jpeg
 
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