buying speakers

[sauuuuuce]

Once you've heard one pair of speakers, you want to hear 'em all.

//Smorgy

Uh huh.......You can say that honestly according to your avatar. Looks like you have heard them all.

 

[MaxSeven]

"But do you like the "Moody" Blues?"

Who doesn't????

I've seen them live at least 10 times.

But do you have 'Time Traveler'?

 

[MarkAnderson]

But name one or more that "you can't go wrong" with.!

Obviously, there's no such thing as a speaker that will appeal to everyone.

You might not go "very far" wrong, but a pair of AR 2ax, nice as they are, won't satisfy a Hard Rock fan that likes to play them loud!

Perhaps not, but they may well appeal to just about everyone else.

Point is, it is entirely possible to point an inquiring mind in the right direction, with a bit of info about said individual's musical tastes, listening habits, etc. etc...

 

[RayW]

Hey Mark, I believe that's the longest post I've ever seen from you. Possibly the most meaningful too.

Well said.

Ray

 

[d-ray657]

Valid point about semantics. :yes:

Now, name a loudspeaker with such a pedigree.

Remember my discussion about "any reasonable person".

But name one or more that "you can't go wrong" with. You might not go "very far" wrong, but a pair of AR 2ax, nice as they are, won't satisfy a Hard Rock fan that likes to play them loud!

But you are correct sir, he did not say a "speaker manufacturer", he said "some loudspeakers". I stand corrected.

Sorry to get off point, but for just a sec. Salesguy, your posts are consistently well stated, but I can't help but hear the voice of Dan Akroyd (sp?) behind every word. Funny how our avatars can influence the perception of the readers - or just impressionable old lads like yours truly.

Regards,

D-Ray

 

[70salesguy]

Point is, it is entirely possible to point an inquiring mind in the right direction, with a bit of info about said individual's musical tastes, listening habits, etc. etc...

As I mentioned earlier, as 70salesguy, that was exactly what I would attempt to do. By asking the right questions and actually listening to what the customer told me, I would narrow the choice down to no more than 2 pairs of speakers for the customer to audition. Most people can not listen to more than 2 pair and "keep it straight" in their mind.

I had a stable of "good choices" from which to recommend. For folks with a modest budget and a taste for the popular music of the 70s, my "house brand" speaker (made by CTS) was a good choice.

For those with a little better developed listening skills, a larger budget and perhaps more varied musical tastes, other good choices could be made from AR 2ax or 3A, JBL L26 or L100, Dynaco A25, several Marantz or Fisher units, Pioneer R-series (500 or 700), Rectilinear and a few others.

I don't recall having any customers come back later and state that they regretted their choice of speakers, if I had worked with them to determine which speaker would suit them well.

And yes, I agree that an inquiring mind could be pointed in the right direction that with some careful listening and evaluation should result in a good selection! :yes:

And D-Ray, I consider that a high compliment and thank you sincerely! :thmbsp:

 

[d-ray657]

There is always a question whether our perceptions are subjective or objective. Plenty of objective data will speak to the quality of speakers, but I'm also sure that there is plenty of objective data on the effect of advertising on consumer attitudes and consumer behavior. You have to know that Bose swears by that data.

Even after we get out of the teen years, we will continue to hear what we want to hear more often than we are willing to admit. If we invest money or reputation into a particular brand, we will do everything we can to convince ourselves (and our ears) that our investment was worthwhile.

Anecdotal evidence: I bought some speakers recently because I was aware of the Polk Audio name. After a little experimentation with placement, I ended up with arrangement where the Polks were running with a set of Advent/3, and I liked that sound. I convinced myself that the Polks sounded good (with the help of the advents, I think), but I continued to try adjustments to make them sound "better." I picked up a pair of speakers at the thrift that might or might not be Mirage speakers. When I hooked them up, I immediately heard a significant improvement over the Polks.

Here is where the psychology comes in. While I was running the Polks, I did a little more research and learned that these were pretty close to BOTL Polks. I also did some research that convinced me that the thrift store speakers might be Mirage, and I read good things about Mirage. The thrift speakers also had some other indicia of quality that my limited experience has taught me to look for; they are heavy, the cabinets are thick, the manufacturer cared enough about them to use real wood veneer, and a rear firing small driver made them interesting. So did my internet research and my pre-conceived notion of what makes for a good speaker stack the deck in favor of the thrift speakers, or do they really sound that much better? I don't know that I can give an objective answer, but I know that the Polks are going on CL and the thrift speakers are in my living room.

Ain't it fun to be human!

Regards,

D-Ray

 

[Zilch]

I am reminded of this post by Publius in another thread:

oh boy, the 4550 on the $9.90 wavendiffractionator seems to be what i have been looking for (for a long time). while both have received good reviews as independent components, i was curious to know if there were any peculiarities that made them poor in combination. so far, it seems that you guys are very pleased...thanks for the infos.

re: listening session. hilarious! it kind of brings up a good point though in that once you do enough studying of the literature on how we make judgments/decisions -> you will develop such a mistrust for your own judgment, you won't be able to form a judgment -> so the only people who will hold confidence in their judgments are the ignoramouses who suffer from all the biases. it's all very weird.

It's why objectivists look first to the measurements. If it doesn't measure well, virtually guaranteed, it's not going to sound good. The opposite is not a given, however. It can measure well and still sound like crap.

No one can read the pages of these forums without being impressed with the singular truth that subjective opinions vary widely. For any given speaker, there are likely both proponents and detractors, which phenomenon is routinely attributed to "Everybody hears differently."

Well, that's not true, either. Examined in detail, under controlled conditions, user listening preferences are surprisingly uniform, so much so, in fact, that they define an objective metric for whether a speaker sounds good or not, statistically.

So, what is going on here, then? It's NOT about the music, and it's NOT about how it sounds, rather, what it MEANS to each of us, and therein lies the key to the diversity (and inherent unreliability) of subjective opinion, including, for each of us, our own.... :yes:

 

[similost]

I'm going to have to disagree - as some loudspeakers have such a pedigree that you cannot go wrong.
My 2C's.

I agree completely.. I spent well over a grand to have a pair of Altec VOTTs shipped to me sight unheard and seen... I'm way beyond happy.. some speakers you just don't need to listen to, to know..

 

[ferninando]

the ONLY thing a person can tell another person is " I like them" but "you mite not", so hear them 1st. Not GW, SA, thrift, sidewalk, ebay, unless you are willing to accept the consequences. IMO

 

[similost]

the ONLY thing a person can tell another person is " I like them" but "you mite not", so hear them 1st. Not GW, SA, thrift, sidewalk, ebay, unless you are willing to accept the consequences. IMO

To each their own.. my VOTTs were my biggest, and best e-bay purchase ever for me. A person can have general knowledge of what a brand and model of speakers will sound like, and be able to buy on that knowledge..

BTW.... sounds like you got screwed on someones word?

 

[Zilch]

Case in point: Simi wants and likes the biggest, baddest, stack of PA gear he can fit in his living room. We need only look at the pic of him atop it to appreciate his preference:

"Big ass speakers with too much power, and nowhere to go fast...."


That's not about how it might sound to any of the rest of us; it's about what it MEANS to him.... :thmbsp:

the ONLY thing a person can tell another person is " I like them" but "you mite not", so hear them 1st.

Exactly.

But my point is that, in the final analysis, we listen LAST, and not well, typically.

By that time, it's largely irrelevant.... :yes:

 

[similost]

well.. not just big.. as in big speakers.. because you just can't get big speaker sound outta small speakers.. or at least if you can, I sure haven't heard it yet... BUT.. my amps are getting smaller, and I'm finding out too fast 30w of tubes on Altecs are MUCH better sounding, and if I want, louder than a couple hundred SS watts..

I will point out several have heard what I have set up now, and have been like WOW!...

 

[doucanoe]

I believe the OP is correct. Making this a subjectivist/objectivist issue is off point.

I have opinions, as do the "pros" regarding how they might enjoy an individual speaker. Other than taken as opinion, it shouldn’t be an automatic trigger to buy. Regardless of what method of evaluation, a listening experience and subsequent opinion is based on too many variables. Room, equipment, source, music selection and preferred listening level can all be, and usually are, strong formers of opinion.


I do not think (correct me if I am wrong) that the point was a criticism of objective evaluation. More to the point, get off your ass and listen to as much as you can in your own environment, with your own gear and you tell me if you like them.

Speaker de jour opinions can be riddled the parroting and bias so just listen for yourself if you can before buying and you will be much happier.

In my signature, I state that I cannot provide any audio opinion that you should give a crap about. Point being, listen for yourself and you tell me.

RC

 

[similost]

I can see how no, don't buy a speaker unheard on someone elses opinion. I could never do that.. But if you have heard a certain brand and/or model, then I don't think a person is doing wrong to buy the same, or even similar without hearing them, unless modifications have been made to a speaker.

What I guess I was trying to say is, when you have a good general idea what something sounds like, if you buy within that realm blind, you're more than likely going to get what, or near what you expected..

 

[doucanoe]

I can see how no, don't buy a speaker unheard on someone elses opinion. I could never do that.. But if you have heard a certain brand and/or model, then I don't think a person is doing wrong to buy the same, or even similar without hearing them, unless modifications have been made to a speaker.

What I guess I was trying to say is, when you have a good general idea what something sounds like, if you buy within that realm blind, you're more than likely going to get what, or near what you expected..

Just so you know, my comments were not directed at you

It's just my opinion. I agree that if you listen to enough opinion regarding a particular speaker, you can get a feel for what might be in store for you. "Might" being the operative.

All the variables might get in the way also so folks need to be aware of that.

Bad opinion can work the same way. I have listened to many speakers in peoples homes where I walked away shaking my head. Take that same speaker, set it up properly with different gear and your opinion might change.

Case in point. Once upon a time I bought two pair of Frazier Dixielanders from this guy. He had them set up in his garage and driven my a little crappy receiver and playstation as a source. They sounded absolutely horrendous. I knew they had more in them than that and brought them home. Hooked them up to a Sherwood tube integrated and bingo, completely different speaker.

Now if you were to ask me if I liked them upon leaving. I would have told you they sounded like dreck. If you would have taken my opinion as gospel on the Frazier Dixielander, you might have missed out on something special. Once again, my opinion.

I don't know where that fits into the objectivist/subjectivist argument but there you go.


RC

 

[Zilch]

I do not think (correct me if I am wrong) that the point was a criticism of objective evaluation. More to the point, get off your ass and listen to as much as you can in your own environment, with your own gear and you tell me if you like them.

I certainly see it there, and I'm saying there is little basis for attributing any greater reliability to our own opinions than, as you suggest, those of anyone else.

Further, the premise that buying speakers is fundamentally about how they sound as might be determined by actually listening to them is itself dubious. We make that part up, largely to align our perceptions into conformity with other factors more significant to us, to which these pages stand in full and undeniable testimony.

Therein lies the nexus of subjectivist/objectivist in this discussion. If subjective opinion, even our own, is unreliable, what, then? Objective fact, is what.... :yes:

 

[MaxSeven]

You know what I think is interesting, not that anyone cares (lol) -- but if one is buying second hand at garage sales, craigslist etc. -- you can get (and try) a whole bunch of speakers. You can then get rid of ones you get tired of, and replace with another 'score'. So perhaps the whole discussion is irrelevant. Unless, of course, we're talking about expensive speakers that can't be found at these places. Which, we are probably talking about, so disregard everything I just wrote.

lol

 

[doucanoe]

I certainly see it there, and I'm saying there is little basis for attributing any greater reliability to our own opinions than, as you suggest, those of anyone else.

Further, the premise that buying speakers is fundamentally about how they sound as might be determined by actually listening to them is itself dubious. We make that part up, largely to align our perceptions into conformity with other factors more significant to us, to which these pages stand in full and undeniable testimony.

Therein lies the nexus of subjectivist/objectivist in this discussion. If subjective opinion, even our own, is unreliable, what, then? Objective fact, is what.... :yes:

I'm not sure Zilch. Maybe I will need to read the Floyd Toole whitepaper again to get my head straight.


So am I to believe that if I unknowingly listen to a pair of "Test Right" speakers and determine them to be "Not so Right" that my opinion is incorrect.

RC



RC

 

[MaxSeven]

I certainly see it there, and I'm saying there is little basis for attributing any greater reliability to our own opinions than, as you suggest, those of anyone else.

Further, the premise that buying speakers is fundamentally about how they sound as might be determined by actually listening to them is itself dubious. We make that part up, largely to align our perceptions into conformity with other factors more significant to us, to which these pages stand in full and undeniable testimony.

Therein lies the nexus of subjectivist/objectivist in this discussion. If subjective opinion, even our own, is unreliable, what, then? Objective fact, is what.... :yes:

This feels like an advanced philosphy class at university. Zilch, were or are you a professor?