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Calling All Wharfedale w70 Owners - Need Help , New Wharfedale kid on the Block

hallcon83

hallcon83

Member
- Hi Everyone , I am pretty new to the forum, having just posted a few times, but am learning a lot from everyone.
---- I have recently had a epiphany or a realization that I must turn away from the dark side! - ( or maybe it's turn to the dark side, I'm not sure which it is yet ) - and begin to learn about vintage and diy Audio!
- Recently while on an eBay hunt I accidentally found myself looking at a add for a pair of Wharfedale W70 Speakers. I knew nothing about vintage Wharfedale speakers but the price seemed like a pretty good deal for the speaker, considering the size and the interesting driver compliment ...... I was intrigued and so did a search that brought me to this forum. I started making my way thru Audiokarma threads/discussions on the various Wharfedale models, the W60's , W70's and W90's . . . . after doing a lot of reading on the different models and looking at their prices on the internet , I decided that the pair of speakers that had first caught my eye - the W70's which were available near me seemed be too good a deal to pass up, and even though I had never actually heard a pair of vintage Wharfedale speakers I was consumed with the audio affliction known as - "I must have it " ...... So I contacted the owner and tried to low ball the price - well not really low ball but I was trying to see if there was any wiggle room on the price, but the seller who had actually purchased them as new fifty years ago was very firm on the price, so since I had Already decided to buy them I the paid ransom - and soon they were mine!
- I have since spent several weeks listening to them, and getting to know them..................... and I am Really amazed in how good these fifty plus year old speakers sound! But , after opening them up and looking inside I know that they can probably sound better, so I am looking for some help and advice in deciding what steps to take next in their restoration ..... (and possibly a few mods as well).
 
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Hi kfa888 , I took a look inside and it still has the original L-Pads, and simple crossover parts, so I want to replace those. Did change your parts out? Did you go with PIO caps or go with Polypropylene? - did you do any Mods or just change out the parts to more modern versions?
 
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Hi

I have two pair early w90's and two pair w70c's. What model are your w70's?

The early w70's are ported and have a minimal crossover, while the w70c's are sealed and mostly have a full three way crossover with two coils and and two caps, although one pair i own have crossovers that do not match, with one having only a single inductor on the midrange. They also have non matching mids. I bought from the original owner so they are likely a non matching transitional pair.

Keep in mind that wharfedale were shipping all the electronic components to various locations such as hong kong and long island NY. The cabinets were constructed in these areas and assembly completed. There was certainly an amount of variation and haphazard assembly, so there are few hard and fast rule as to what you may find inside.

For the three driver w70, recap with either poly's or oil caps, I've done both and both sound great. Get a small cover to cover the back of the 8 inch midrange, it's hard to find a size that fits but I had luck with round food storage containers I found in Walmart. This is a great improvement.

There are various opinions on whether the woofer surrounds were originally sealed. From the early w90 brochures we know that in this application the 12 inch woofer was sealed with what sounds like the same butyl like we now use to seal the klh speaker driver surrounds. I've done this with early w90's (which are ported) to reseal them, and I've sealed w70c's which are not ported. I observe through listening but but not measuring, my opinion is improved bass response.

The super 3 tweeter is amazing - renew its cap and leave it alone.

If you have later w70's I can't offer advice as I have no experience with them. Have fun restoring and listening.
 
--- Next question ,

----- Throwing this out to the universe........ has anyone ever tried the modern version of the crossover that drbiggles has posted for the W70's?????
 
- Hi telejunky , I didn't see your post till after I posted next the question about the updated crossover drbiggles has talked about and posted .

- My a W70's have 3 drivers in them , 12, 8 and the smaller non - Alnico version of the Super 3 Tweeter. The crossover has two L-Pads, a 4uF cap and a 18uF cap , I think there is also a small inductor/transformer (?) - in there as well. My drivers seem to have 1966 written on the back of some of them, and they look like they have the cloth surrounds. --- Thanks for the Great information and the tip on the Wallmart idea! ----- oh and they are sealed - no ports, and they open up from the front.
 
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After some time, reading, putting things to the test, those crossover designs should not be used. These older drivers should have first order crossovers. The drivers placement on the baffle is less of an issue. Go with new poly caps. Vintage oil caps make the super 3 too dark. And, drivers will sound unbalanced from left to right. 60 year old caps have drifted in value, all differently. I’ve had the right speaker darker than the left, not cool. New caps please. Just replace what’s in there, same value. Voltage should be the same or higher. Already mentioned, the bowl over the back of the midrange, lined with cotton batting. The woofers backwave pounds on the midrange and makes it sound confused. You’re almost there!

Biggles
 
[QUOTE="drbiggles, post: 13860619, member: 116844" Already mentioned, the bowl over the back of the midrange, lined with cotton batting. The woofers backwave pounds on the midrange and makes it sound confused. [/QUOTE]

W90s have a bowl like cover over the back of the mids...
 
Hi Biggles , WOW thaaaaaaaaat was CLOSE --- !!! - :eek:

I have had the parts for both of the crossovers that were on those pages sitting in my cart at Parts Express for a week !! -

- I have been going back and forth all night and day long on whether Push the order button or not (-- Insonmia , I don't get much sleep) -- I am SOOOOO GLAD you jumped in here said something......!!!!!!! - :beerchug:

-- The reason they weren't already ordered and on their way here was that the total - Without - the woofer equalizer circuit was about - $200 to $350 dollars -- LOL - !!!!!!!!!!
- I really don't have the extra money, but I wanted to hear the differences of the new crossovers to see if it was really a large improvement or not. . . . . ( the total includes the old original crossover , the new 4 L-Pads, both xovers designs, and the tweeter Zobel circuit ... and depending on which level of quality parts there that I chose of coarse ) ---- I
 
Glad to help! Not sure if you mentioned it, don’t need to buy anything more than Dayton 5%. Hells bells, new electrolytic caps at this point would be fine. No need to break the bank.

Biggles
 
Another bit of advice, both the woofer and the mids might want to be rotated 180 degrees. The w70 pair of mine with those mids needed it, and it's something you can tackle when you put on the covers. I had to extend the lead wires a bit to accommodate the rotation. Also the mids are kind of delicate, these are not speakers you want to be playing really loud.
 
Thanks good advice I haven't rotated the drivers yet, sounds like good insurance - :thumbsup:

- Question : Is it still a good idea to go with the Zobel network on the Super 3 Tweeters ? - - - - ( mine are the ceramic version)

---- I'm going to possibly be doing some Mods to work on the -- woofer being in to small of a box -- issue , I came across a radical Idea , I don't know for sure if it will work or not ..... well see , I'll post it soon.

- Question : Has anyone done a complete refinishing job on their W60, W70 or W90 Speaker boxes? I'm wanting to really do a top notch exterior upgrade but not sure the best choices or products to use ...... could use some advice there... How to really put a classy finish on the cabinets????
 
I would suggest just putting in new caps, cover the back of the mid, rotating drivers, and listening for 2 weeks. When you have a chance to sit and spend time with your equipment, and you listen to what they’re telling you, you’ll know what to do. Gotta have a solid foundation, know where you’re starting from. Then continue, if warranted.

Biggles
 
Someone over at diyaudio found this for me - l don't really understand it , but it looks a little more evolved than mine , they added a extra capacitor and an extra coil.....
 

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It would be nice to have a choke/inductor on the mid. However, I believe that’s a second order crossover. It’s a similar design to the ones I posted. These old drivers prefer a gentle first order crossover with a gentle slope. All the drivers will converge nicely when you’re listening. Your room for error diminishes on driver placement with higher order crossovers. Plus, you may have phase issues with the extra parts. I say, less is more. The fewer parts your music goes through the better. It’s cheaper too.

what you should do is spend some time reading, educate yourself on crossover design. It’s not as simple as you think it might be. There’s not just a few things to understand. You start clogging up your signal path with all kinds of bits, you will do more harm than good.

Biggles
 
- yes, your right , I do need to learn --
- If you wanted to try a 1st order crossover down the road what frequency's would you cross these drivers over at???
 
hallcon83 said:
- yes, your right , I do need to learn --
- If you wanted to try a 1st order crossover down the road what frequency's would you cross these drivers over at???
Click to expand...

Choose the original to start out with. Try that for a month. Try the woofer and mid at 400hz, then have the mid and tweeter at 3k. I think the mid is good enough to do much of the heavy lifting. The second largest issue with the early W70 is the size of the cabinet, it’s way too small. That 12” woofer wants 5 cubic feet to reach its potential. It needs a proper 3 way first order crossover, back of the mid covered, and a larger cabinet. All of which are very doable.

Biggles
 
- Hi , thanks for the advice on the crossover points, I understand about the cabinet being to small ...... I have a idea on how to work around that, but I also am trying to Keep the W70's as close to original as is feasible . . . but still try and get the maximum fidelity out of them. I had never heard vintage Wharfedale speakers before this, but I have been listening a lot more and I have to say that I am still very impressed with their sound... especially since the caps, L-Pads and drivers are all original - :music: .......... I am excited to see what they will sound like with new parts and a few tweaks!
- I also think they could use some more braces , or some stiffening on the sides and top of the cabinet , if you knock on them , the sand filled back is very solid , but the rest of them seem pretty hollow sounding.

--- I would also really like to see a first class exterior on them -- I know that probably means I need to put on new veneer ... Anyone have refinishing advice?
 
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