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Can YOU hear the difference in Tube Rectifiers?

Wharfcreek

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Decided to spark some controversy today..... The question of 'hearing the difference in tube rectifiers' is one that I often shunned away from, however I adamantly affirmed that I could 'hear' the difference in moving from a Tube Rectifier to a Solid State rectifier. And, now that I'm just a bit older and wiser...... I have a pretty good feeling of knowing 'why' I could hear that difference. And, while I have not yet really graduated to hearing the difference in Tube Rectifiers...... I have it on pretty good authority from trusted friends and fellow 'audio buffs' that THEY claim to hear the difference....and I no longer question them. However, the 'what' they are hearing is, I believe' the real issue.....and perhaps even further, is what they are hearing actually an 'improvement' or a 'detriment' to the function of the audio device.

When one considers the world of 'tube rectifiers'...... there is really quite a deviance in their performance level.....even when operating at the same basic 'filament' voltage. Considering 'just' the family of 5 volt rectifiers out there, the 'range' of both 'current' capability AND 'voltage drop' is really quite dramatic. And, when applying this to 'some' amplifiers, clearly those changes can make a difference in how they act, or 'sound'; particularly if all you do is pull a rectifier from it's socket and substitute another one. I would take the example of moving from a 5U4 to a 5AR4....with the voltage drop difference being perhaps the biggest difference in that family of 5 volt rectifiers. Removing the 5U4 and installing a 5AR4 can significantly increase B+...which can clearly affect sound! BUT..... is it 'good' for the amp? In many cases, that increase in B+ can push the amp beyond it's original design intentions, and even take the voltage levels beyond the tolerance limits of some of the components there in; specifically power supply filters, but not limited to that. Tube plate voltage levels can also fall into this category, as can other parts.

So....is swapping rectifiers necessarily a 'good' thing? Maybe? But, the REAL test is, to me, a question of answering two questions with 'yes'. The first question is: Can the amp 'take it'? In other words, will the increase in B+ cause damage or failure....... and the second question is: Does the change cause the amp to generate a cleaner signal with increased output? This second question is really the heart of the issue to me....assuming the amp can 'take' the VR increase in B+ without blowing a filter cap or eating tubes. In reality, I believe these original designers were NOT all that dumb! So, changing a rectifier tube is NOT necessarily going to benefit the amp in any discernible way. But, not all tubes were 'available' during the production of some of these amps, so the popular 5U4 may have been used just because there were gajillions of them back when the amps were designed and built. However, just maybe, the installation of a 5AR4 WILL make the amp work better.

To answer this question, I believe you really need some sophisticated test equipment. Putting your tone controls at 'flat' and your volume control at 1/2 and then changing rectifiers is NOT the way to test this, but sadly, I believe it's what a lot of people who have reported being able to 'hear' the difference have done. When you take this kind approach, then 'yes' you'll probably hear a difference. BUT, you'll NOT know what the changes are in B+, AND, you'll not know if you're putting your amp 'at risk' of failure from being operated at too high a voltage level. So, then how do you really know? Well, as I see it, you have to see where the amp is performing with one rectifier, KNOW for a fact that the change in rectifier will NOT damage the amp, then you have to see how the amp performs with the second rectifier....and all of this has to be done while measuring power output, distortion levels, AND watching for visible distortions on a scope while looking at the wave pattern.

Let me wrap up my comments here by saying that I understand there is a LOT to this subject. I guess I'm just trying to address the issue of popping in rectifier tubes and listening for changes...while NOT knowing if the amp might be damaged down the road. So, to all those who read this...'thanks'! To those who comment..... I'm looking forward to it! WC
 
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See....this is what I like: An intelligent response to a 'discussable' subject! WC
 
I asked this question in the Modern HiFi section and reading that you have the experience, what is the musical difference between the tube and SS rectifier?

I know that manufactures have been using SS rectifiers for decades in equipment designed for them i just wonder how they sound vs the tube in equipment that originally had a tube rectifier.
 
Some guys I respect say they can, but I sure can't. My ears have been thrashed for years. If a rectifier delivers a constant supply of DCV with no sag, that's about as good as it gets for me.:music:
 
I changed the the stock rectifier tube in my LM 518IA for a Philips rectifier tube and the change was very noticeable, in a good way. I have always been curious about the SS rectifiers.
 
When you replace tubes with solid state diodes in rectifyer circuit, you have to alter rest of circuit too. Only that way you can get proper results. Different rectifier tubes have different parameters. In most cases yoh cannot just swap one tube type for another.
 
Different rectifier tubes will give you different voltage drops.

If your amplifier sounds better with the 5R4 compared to the 5AR4, then it would be that your amplifier might be getting more voltage than what the original design allows when using the correct tube.

You might be overheating or possibly burning up some resistors when using the 5R4.
 
The only rectifiers I can hear are bad one. Going from a good rectifier of a given number to another good one of the same number sounds the same to me. I do not change rectifier types. That gets into more nonsense with changing things to maintain the proper voltages and I have little desire to bother with it.

I have little doubt that changing rectifier types may be audible. The voltages change, so it makes sense that the sound changes. The problem is, unless you specifically know what you're doing and know that the amplifier can deal with those changes, its a bad idea and potentially a recipe for transformer or capacitor failure. Most things were engineered with a specific rectifier called for. The power supply was designed around having that part, so messing with it can have unintended consequences.
 
Cad, Gadget..... you're 'exactly' on point! This subject...controversial as it may be, is really more about the 'what NOT to do' aspect of tube-flipping....and specifically rectifier tube flipping. As a now 'ex' guitar player...... I was ASTOUNDED at how much better my old Fender Super Reverb sounded when I discovered the concept of sticking a solid-state rectifier in there in place of the 5AR4 used in the 'stock' design. The good news there is that Fender built the power supply with a couple of 350 volt Caps making a 700 volt front end. So, I got lucky! I had a similar 'epiphany' when I did the cap-board upgrade to my ST-70 and stuck a SS rectifier in the socket. BUT..... without having done the cap board, that simple replacement would have been a potential disaster.

I do believe that some rectifiers of the same 'type' may be significantly different enough that the Power Supply would react differently, ergo the amp would sound different based on a comparison of the two. The comment about the two 5AR4s somewhat supports that. However, to me, this gets more to the production discrepancies of tubes than to the original point of changing tube types. Hey, a 5AR4 DOES have a very explicit set of specifications. As 6DZ7 points out, the amp doesn't know where the electrons are coming from. BUT, if a 'weak' 5AR4 is being used where a 'good' 5AR4 should be.....then 'YES'.....a difference might easily be audible.

All this really started for me when I got into a phone discussion with a friend who had just spent the day 'auditioning' rectifiers in a retail store. In the end, he emphatically stated he could hear the difference in different rectifiers. However, I argued that 'what' he was hearing was not all necessarily good. Shooting too much voltage to an amp may make it sound 'better' at mid-volume levels, but it could be doing long-term damage that could be VERY costly in the end. Likewise, too little voltage could easily be causing a good amp to sound lousy. So, in the end, I'm not sure he really accomplished what he thinks he did. Just my opinion....but I'm stickin' to it!

As to 'SS' rectification vs 'tube' rectification...... I'm still up in the air on this one too. While I agree that amps don't know where electrons come from....the subject of 'white noise' or SS 'hiss' DOES seem to be a valid issue. I can't say that I've actually heard it....but then I've never really put together a set of circumstances where it might be audible. Fodder for later.

I of the opinion that if an amp was 'specified' for a particular rectifier...that should be stuck with..... UNLESS you make the necessary adjustment to accommodate a given change...which may be more than just filter caps. Changing from a particular tube type, ie 6BQ5 vs 7189, or 6V6 vs 7408..... this may be another needed change. And, in the end, is it still the same amp?....or a 'new' one? WC
 
Warfcreek,

You have been bold enough to bring up a controversial topic - and give your own answers - correctly so! Not to be nasty, but I am anticipating the usual "we are armchair analysts, not appreciating that middle frequencies (the lower ones) have/lose more pace, while high frequencies have/lose added nimbleness ...... "

Not to repeat the voltage regulation and value thing. But to simplify: One will really only begin to notice when the output capability changes by >3 dB (leaving holyfied golden ears there for the minute), which will mostly become apparent only near maximum output only anyway. Apart from old amplifiers from the days when even 16µF filter caps were large and the rail voltage might therefore have varied from pianissimo to forte giving an audible effect, I would like to hear more exact descriptions of what audible differences were noticed by those who did. Where you still wonder (unnecessarily with your insight I would say), proper power supply output caps of some 100s.µF (quite practical these days) should obviate audible effects under most music conditions.

A change to SS rectifiers: Effects and precautions have been mentioned, perhaps to add that one also keep early 'turn-on' effects in mind; again a simple procedure. Switching transients: Again real, again easily solved. (Not to split hairs, but it might be as simple as checking where diode leads go. Semiconductor diode wiring can induce quite sharp transients in nearby circuits which would not have been the case with slower tube rectifiers.)

Thus very real points made above. I wish all in doubt will take note. Further than that - don't lose sleep over all the anecdotal claims made.
 
I hate when what could have been a good topic gets side tracked by keyboard nonsense.

For those that know is there a musical difference between a Weber WZ68 and a 5AR4 tube in an amp made for the 5AR4 tube? I can hear a difference in 5AR4 tubes from different manufactures so i would assume a musical difference using a WZ68??

I do not wish to debate:thumbsdn: just would like an answer to my question.:thmbsp:
 
Depends on the amp really. My Yaqin MC10T was a definite improvement over SS amps I'd previously owned. None of those would have been considered high end though.

I believe higher end SS gear would almost certainly have sounded nicer than the MC10T with stock valves, now I've a mix of 3rd party new and NOS valves however I'm not so certain. I'm also not sure that everyone would consider my changes to be improvements as such however to me its greatly improved. Lent a lovely laid back warmth to the music I've never before experienced without any loss of detail. Likewise music has an organic fluidity that sounds very natural t my ear. Much more like real life rather than the reproduction of sound.

I think the thing that I liked most was the ability to tailor my systems sound to my preferences, with an SS amp this is really just limited to EQ. Tubes took things to a whole new level for me. I'm not saying the same couldn't be done with SS, though it would likely cost one whole lot more.

So to the question of could I tell the difference between tube and SS: I believe it would come down to the amps in questions and their configuration. As I mentioned, my amp in its stock configuration (using Shugang valves) simply sounds like a rather nice solid state amp. You need to change the valves to get a better sound.
 
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SS recs are better than tubes, because tubes have internal resistance and that limits the power peaks when its needed, i remember reading that on a soldano´s article. In theory, SS diodes doesnt limit peaks...So I replaced a fused tube rectifier in my old tube amp with 4 diodes, B+ increased. At low levels peaks were unleashed, specially low end. Sound improved. But, at higher volume levels distortion appeared in low freq peaks, seem tubes went off bias. So heres the deal... had to use a big 20W 800ohm resistor to drop the voltage. I think it sounds better now, but i dont know if putting the resistor is a way to go... and is the same as using the tube rec...
 
Salvador, you mention 'Soldano' in your post. In your further discussion about your amp, you didn't mention what kind of amp you were working with. I'm unaware of any 'Soldano' amp that is for home audio..... Also, I'm going to assume that article was about a musical instrument amp (guitar?)..... To me, this is ENTIRELY a different world of amplification! While many guitarist/musicians have a great appeal for tube amps, both in their performance play list AND on their home music systems....the simple fact is that the 'amp' used by the guitarist when performing is very much a part of the instrument itself. Guitar amps 'function' as sound production devices, each one having a different voice, reacting differently to a given guitar, and may even be considered an instrument alone. Where as in home audio the amp is a sound 'reproduction' device, with the goal being to accurately reproduce that which was recorded WITHOUT any distortion or added coloration. Hence, where guitar players may often go for certain rectifiers in their old tube amps as a function of 'sag' or 'compression'....part of what they're looking for when they play....this same aspect of performance is NOT a desirable component in home audio. On the contrary.....if a home amp had this same characteristic, it could possibly be considered for criticism in both design or potential need for repair.....or both.

RH67..... you may want to 'clarify' your question. I'm not sure just what you're asking.

Aud-Vet.. I chuckle at your style!!.....lol....but, you make good points! Well done!

This 'switching' noise that is purported as being a function of SS rectifiers; it is 'filterable'? I guess I'm wondering why it's not adsorbed by the filter caps? RH, if this is your question, I too would like some further clarification on the issue. Honestly, aside from slow turn on and cathode stripping (which is yet another controversial subject for yet another thread).... I'm not sure just what 'benefit' is derived from use of a tube rectifier over a SS device.....IF the amp is 'voltage compensated' for use of the SS rectifier. WC
 
6DZ7.... I think we were posting at the same time. But, as you appear to have a pretty good take on all this, let me ask you this question: When switching FROM a tube rectifier TO SS type rectification....aside from this 'switching' issue, there is the problem of 'loss' of the voltage drop associated with the original tube rectifier. OR, as is perhaps more simply put, there is an associated 'gain' in B+ voltage. I believe many people simply ignore that fact....and thus the additional B+ IS what is being reacted to in comments about amps 'sounding better'. But, again, putting that to the side; there is another group of people who 'compensate' for this increased B+ by doing as Salvador mentioned.... just purring a whopping big power resistor back in line to reduce the B+. HOWEVER, in consideration of this..... I'm questioning the wisdom of that as it relates to the aspect of the benefits derived from going to the SS rectifier in the first place? That big resistor is just another big obstacle AFTER the B+ supply.....so in effect, while it may bring B+ back to 'spec' levels..... it also puts a resistance factor into the PS such that the available current 'benefit' offered by the SS devices is now choked off at that resistor......so....what did you really accomplish other than removing the filament demand off the PT?

Just a thought........... WC
 
Here is my take and I'm a tube rectified lover.....

Brand to brand of the same type.......the difference in a properly and well designed power supply is minimal at best if all rectifier brands used are in good working order. The difference brand to brand is purely from a longevity stand point.

Now change rectifier types in a given amplifier and absolutely you'll hear a difference but the difference you hear has little to do with one type being superior to the other and everything to so with the voltage and current ability difference.

also factor in that an amplifier designed for say a 5AR4 in most cases will be severely stressing something like a 5U4 along with many other types that are pin compatible...

murky waters that many will garnish totally skewed perceptions...
 
Craig, your 'take' is pretty much the same as mine. But, after having that phone conversation with my friend, I just had to stir up the kettle a bit. And, ya never know, I might learn something along the way. Might be a good time to bring up Mr. Copper's Cap......lol WC
 
When ModWright did the tube rectifier mod to my ModWright 9.0, replacing the SS stage, It came with a Sovtek valve.

Dan Wright called this the "heart and soul" of this unit and suggested a Mullard. For my taste, I preferred the tube rectifier over the SS and preferred the Mullard over the Sovtek.

Note that my ability to hear the difference between all three was likely influenced by my expectation bias and need to justify spending $500 for the upgrade and $100 on the Mullard. But I'd do it again in a heartbeat and firmly believe the tube can make a difference.
 
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