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Can't Fix My Sibilance (Two Year Struggle!!!)

hotrodman21

hotrodman21

Active Member
Alright all... It's time to figure this out...

I've tried damn near everything to get to the bottom of this, over the passed two years... Although I've never described the whole setup... Here goes...
Starting with the receiver, I have a Sony STR-DH130... http://www.amazon.com/Sony-STRDH130-Channel-Stereo-Receiver/dp/B006U1VH2S

From that, I run brand new (just bought them a few weeks ago) premium audio cables... I bought this to attempt to fix the sibilance...http://www.amazon.com/iMBAPrice®-Quality-Theater-Audio-Cable/dp/B00I0HPK4G

These run into a Pyle PP999 Preamp... http://www.amazon.com/Pyle-PP999-Phono-Turntable-Pre-Amp/dp/B00025742A

Which run to a Pioneer PL-50 Turntable (Original 60's, or 70's)

Running an AT-CN5625AL Cartridge with a brand new Elliptical Stylus just a couple weeks old...
http://www.turntableneedles.com/Needle-211-DE-copy_p_1059.html

It runs at 2.42g, the anti-bias dial reads 2, it works... I "floated" the Tonearm to make sure, if I turn the dial, it glides right back to the rest...

I also used the Protractor I purchased (printing it would've worked, I just didn't know back then) the cartridge is parallel to the lines on the protractor...

Finally, I will list off the sound boxes... My speakers are a pair of off-brand dbIV's and a pair of Fishers... It sounds bad on paper, but I swear to you they play every detail... From the faintest hi-hat, to the deepest kick drum, or bass...

My headphones are where I have the most troubles... They sound great! Except with the turntable... Polk Audio "Buckles" (Holy Cow! In writing this, I looked them up to double check they were the correct ones, the price dropped drastically! They used to be $200!)

The final straw was last night, listening to the brand new copy of Deja Vu (CSNY) I bought... The "s" sounds distorted so much on the first cut it was almost unlistenable!

Thank you SO much for helping... I've been battling this for two years, I've tried many different cartridge alignments, and multiple different carts (had a PC-35 before, the PN-35 stylus was too low profile, and the cart would actually bottom out on the record, so it had to go)

I will send any pictures you guys may need once I get home...

Thanks,

Brandon
 
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Is your overhang proper? Pioneer uses 49 mm. Is tracking force recommended range, preferably towards the high end of the manufacturer's recommendations. Is your arm balanced correctly before that tracking force is set. The PL 50 I just serviced has no issue with sibilance. It tracks very well without issues. Also make sure the lateral balance is adjusted correctly, and azimuth good on the arm.
 
The overhang is proper... They give you an alignment line on the pilot light... The stylus goes right in it.. The recommended weight is 1.5-3 Grams. What do you mean balance the Tonearm? Can you elaborate on the lateral balance (the cylinder weight to the left of the counterweight?) and the azimuth...

I've seen the tiny weight balanced on the end of the bar in pictures, so I did the same, I found that picture (attached) on Google for visual aid...
 

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Sibilance is caused by the stylus losing contact with the groove, so as Ken's pointed out the typical fixes include overhang, tracking force and alignment.

When aligning your cartridge, try to align the cantilever, not the cartridge body, with the lines on the protractor.

To balance the tonearm, you adjust the counterweight at the back of the tonearm until the tonearm and cartridge floats level. Do this with Bias set to 0. You can probably move the inner dial of the counterweight to show a "0" reading at this point. Then you twist the inner dial and the counterweight until it reads a weight within the manufacturer's recommended range.

It helps to use a scale since the counterbalance markings can go out of adjustment over time.

One of these works:

71dKfoheomL._SX522_.jpg


Or one of these:
41RYcZAQJqL._AC_UL160_SR160,160_.jpg


Azimuth refers to getting the stylus vertically oriented in the groove. An easy way to check is to use a small mirror. You want the cantilever to be perfectly vertical from the reflection up to the actual cart.

Azimuth%20Adjustment.png


Hope this helps.
 
Hotrod, where are you located, maybe someone local can take a peek and help.
 
O
dcmfan said:
Sibilance is caused by the stylus losing contact with the groove, so as Ken's pointed out the typical fixes include overhang, tracking force and alignment.

When aligning your cartridge, try to align the cantilever, not the cartridge body, with the lines on the protractor.

To balance the tonearm, you adjust the counterweight at the back of the tonearm until the tonearm and cartridge floats level. Do this with Bias set to 0. You can probably move the inner dial of the counterweight to show a "0" reading at this point. Then you twist the inner dial and the counterweight until it reads a weight within the manufacturer's recommended range.

It helps to use a scale since the counterbalance markings can go out of adjustment over time.

One of these works:

71dKfoheomL._SX522_.jpg


Or one of these:
41RYcZAQJqL._AC_UL160_SR160,160_.jpg


Azimuth refers to getting the stylus vertically oriented in the groove. An easy way to check is to use a small mirror. You want the cantilever to be perfectly vertical from the reflection up to the actual cart.

Azimuth%20Adjustment.png


Hope this helps.
Click to expand...
OH! Yeah, I knew how to balance the tone arm... Like I said, I have it running at 2.42 Grams... I have that exact digital scale pictured...
 
OK, sibilance can be very annoying. It needs to be figured out.. It is usually a product of mistracking in some way. But I'm a little concerned when you say the PC35 with new stylus bottomed out on the record. That indicates to me that the tracking force (TF) was not right... So we need to start there...

Put a tissue or something soft in the area between the platter and the tone arm rest just in case ... Release the tone arm hold-down. Turn the counterweight in toward the gymbal until the arm floats off the rest. Let it swing to where it wants to be. Turn the counterweight in or out until the arm floats level and flat as viewed from the side. Without turning the counterweight body (hold with two fingers to prevent rotation), move the ring with the numbers so that ZERO lines up with the indicator mark.

Now turn the whole counterweight and number ring in until the scale on the ring says what you want (2.8'ish). The arm should have settled downward toward the rest... When you place the cartridge end on the digital scale the counterweight scale and the digital scale should pretty much agree... Do they?

OK, if they do, we have double checked TF. Now gently place the arm over a used record needle down. The table can be unplugged from power so it does not spin. Look at the arm from the side. Is it parallel with the record surface? Is the cartridge body parallel with the record surface? If not, you may need to adjust the arm height...

Sibilant system often want to sound their best with the arm running slightly tail down. That is with the gymbal assembly slightly below the place where the arm is dead flat with the record surface.

If all that is correct, I think the next step is to get a spare headshell off the 'Bay and another cartridge/stylus and go there. Keep the one you have assembled as is. Build another using maybe a Grado BLACK as the test mule. If this second one sounds sibilant, the problem is outside the ARM/TT. If it's quiet and tracks right, the issue is in the first headshell/cartridge.

This is a process of elimination... If the problem is outside the TT/Arm/Cart, I can loan you an ART DJ Pre to substitute for the Pyle999 in testing the next leg in the chain... But let's do all the TT stuff first :)
 
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I would suspect a cartridge alignment problem. Aligning the cartridge body to the grid is not sufficient. You want to align the cantilever to the grid on the protractor. Use strong light, and even some magnification to make sure you got it right. It is surprising how much closer the alignment can be adjusted this way. And be sure to double check it after you tighten the cartridge bolts, as there is a good possibility things can shift and you don't realize it.

Also, make sure your stylus is clean, as mistracking can be caused by a dirty stylus, and even a dirty record. Now if a record has groove damage, then there is nothing you can do to repair that, although different stylus profiles can go a long ways to minimizing the audible effects of groove damage.

One other point to consider. Is the table level? No anti skate setting is going to function properly if the turntable is not sitting level.

Just a few points to consider, hope there is something in there that helps you.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
BrocLuno said:
OK, sibilance can be very annoying. It needs to be figured out.. It is usually a product of mistracking in some way. But I'm a little concerned when you say the PC35 with new stylus bottomed out on the record. That indicates to me that the tracking force (TF) was not right... So we need to start there...

Put a tissue or something soft in the area between the platter and the tone arm rest just in case ... Release the tone arm hold-down. Turn the counterweight in toward the gymbal until the arm floats off the rest. Let it swing to where it wants to be. Turn the counterweight in or out until the arm floats level and flat as viewed from the side. Without turning the counterweight body (hold with two fingers to prevent rotation), move the ring with the numbers so that ZERO lines up with the indicator mark.

Now turn the whole counterweight and number ring in until the scale on the ring says what you want (2.8'ish). The arm should have settled downward toward the rest... When you place the cartridge end on the digital scale the counterweight scale and the digital scale should pretty much agree... Do they?

OK, if they do, we have double checked TF. Now gently place the arm over a used record needle down. The table can be unplugged from power so it does not spin. Look at the arm from the side. Is it parallel with the record surface? Is the cartridge body parallel with the record surface? If not, you may need to adjust the arm height...

Sibilant system often want to sound their best with the arm running slightly tail down. That is with the gymbal assembly slightly below the place where the arm is dead flat with the record surface.

If all that is correct, I think the next step is to get a spare headshell off the 'Bay and another cartridge/stylus and go there. Keep the one you have assembled as is. Build another using maybe a Grado BLACK as the test mule. If this second one sounds sibilant, the problem is outside the ARM/TT. If it's quiet and tracks right, the issue is in the first headshell/cartridge.

This is a process of elimination... If the problem is outside the TT/Arm/Cart, I can loan you an ART DJ Pre to substitute for the Pyle999 in testing the next leg in the chain... But let's do all the TT stuff first :)
Click to expand...
Super Quick, I am not currently using the PC-35 any longer on the TT... It wasn't the tracking force, I discovered this last night, the PN-35 stylus is very low profile... barely poking out from the cartridge... I may have had a faulty needle, or it may be like that normally... I bought a new cart from recommendations from the forums... Specifically from one person that replied within this very thread... "needlestein".

I noticed you make great mention of the cart at first in your post, but, if I'm being honest, I have yet to read the rest... I apologize if this is irrelevant...
 
Alright, one thing I need to address, I am ninety percent sure that I am unable to adjust the height of the tonearm on my deck... It may be able to be adjusted... I may just be dumb...
 
The quick way to do a "tail down" test is to put a nice flat piece of cardboard under the mat to raise the record playing height... Or, sometimes to slip an old unused LP under there... Anything to get the arm to act as it is were adjusted tail down and see what happens?

I'm pretty sure my foggy memory is telling me that your arm is adjustable via a set screw underneath... Don't take that as gospel, but I think I remember it being possible ...

But do the quick and dirty test first. If that works, we can work on final adjustment later :)
 
needlestein said:
Also, are there specific records that always give you trouble? I'm not familiar with the record that is frustrating you, but there is a long list of records somewhere that are basically too hot for any cartridge to handle well. These records have probably caused a lot of audio enthusiasts to unnecessarily and futilely upgrade their cartridges or styli.
Click to expand...

Maybe that's why I am still frustrated on occasion by sibilance...
 
I dunno if CSN is that sort of a record, but it may depend on the actual pressing too ...

If you still have that Pioneer PC-35 cartridge (?), I'd get a new needle for it and lash it up on a spare headshell. You'd then have a conical PC) and an elliptical (AT) and you could swap as needed. Sometimes conicals sound better on old vinyl. Sometimes ellipticals...

But one thing at a time :)

One thing, did I notice that the Pyle999 has a headphone port?
 
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I'm still thinking it's the preamp. I'm all for hi fi on a budget, but $16 is just too inexpensive for a preamp to be built with anything but the most inferior, cheap components. That, and as I've said before, I've yet to experience anything Pyle that wasn't...er...a pyle of you know what. It may be overdriving the preamp on your Sony and causing distortion that sounds an awful lot like sibilance from mistracking.

Your cartridge is about the most inexpensive a person can buy also...but having owned that particular cart myself, it's probably not the sole culprit. There are better tracking carts with less sibilance, but it alone wouldn't seem to me to be the issue.

I certainly wouldn't struggle for over two years trying to get something out of nothing, which unfortunately is pretty close to what you're attempting to do. You can't get those two years back, but you can get a better preamp, consider a cartridge upgrade, refer to the turntable setup guide on AK and be happier going forward.
 
I don't disagree. But suggested trying a few "free" tricks first. If that does not work, I'm in agreement that it's the Pyle Phono next...

I also have big reservations that it is doing its job right.... For the price of some postage, I can send 'em a spare ART DJ Pre that I know is running 100%. If that fixes it, we know where they have to go next :D

But one step at a time :)
 
What if TTN accidentally sent you the "HIGH 3+ Grams" stylus instead of the standard 1.25-2.5 grams one?

I would email them and see if there's anything that would indicate if you got the high or lower tracking model. If you got the high tracking model by mistake, that would explain why you're getting sibilance.
 
Well, the quick way to test that is to dial up some additional TF. No need to reset the counterweight scale or anything. Just dial from 2.8 to 4 and set it on a record surface and see if the cantilever gets pushed up to the body. If so, it's the light tracking stylus. If it does not move much, it's the heavier tracking stylus ... Deflection will tell :)
 
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