Canton Karat 300

[Nag]

I'm brand new to audiokarma and also relatively new to the hifi world. But.. I currently own a rotel ra-12 amp and golden ear triton 3's and a pair of Spendor sp3-1r2's. BUT I just picked up a pair of Canton Karat 300's from a yardsale and my first impression was that they sound AMAZING. I first listened to them with a friends Rega brio 3 but the detail and speed was astounding to me.

I can find very little about these online - has anyone had any experience with these speakers? Do you love them... or not love them? I'm excited about this find but don't really know anything about these or where they stand in Canton's lineup.

Thanks everyone. First post on AK

I have a set of the bookshelf Canton Karat.
Canton was considered a "Higher priced" speaker. Whether or not that mean "good" depends on how good your ears are
I have alway loved the clean sound these produced even after one of my cats decided the top of one of the speakers would be a good place to perch. The speaker was pulled down, breaking the plastic mount which holds and supports the speaker cone.

That, I might have been able to fix, and tried almost successfully. Claiming victory, I hooked the speaker back up. Horrible sound....quite un- listenable.
The speaker hit hard enough to knock the magnet off center.

O.K. maybe I'm getting off topic, sorry.
Those Karats performed so well, I decided to get them fixed.
What happened to one of the speakers had nothing to do with Canton and in case you're wondering, the cat is not dead!

Consider yourself fortunate to find such a great speaker.

 

[Thy]

Hi Ben, sorry for taking so long to reply, we had to put my wife in the hospital this week and I haven't had the time to be active here.

I'd say that for $50 in good condition you did quite well with your 300's.

Concerning the CT and Ergo, I haven't had any personal experience with them, but would like to. Our AK'er Autobahn has a pair of CT 1000 and would be a useful person to contact.
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/canton-ct-1000-recapping-refurbing.717364/

The CT's seem to have been made in 2 distinctly different forms. The CT 800, 1000, and 2000 are similar to the "bookshelf" form of the Karat 60 but larger and with upgrades. The CT 80, 90, 100 and 120 are a tower form with a front port. I have a friend that has a pair of 80's and he is very pleased with them.

Here are some links to HiFi Wiki's entries for the CT lines. The site is in German but anyone with an understanding of speaker specs should be able to extract the useful info from them.
http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Canton_CT_800
http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Canton_CT_80

Links to the rest of each of the 2 series are near the bottom of each page.

Now that you have had them for a little how do you like your 300's? Do consider pairing them with a Yamaha amp, they really compliment the clean and clear Canton sound.

Cheers,
James

Hi all

Im new here and been reading a lot about vintage speakers lately because of my intentions of upgrading the speakers and limited budget. I have Cantons LE 500 paired with an Yamaha M65/C65 combo that I stumbled upon by chance in my local charity shop a few years ago. I do like the sound synergy of the setup, the detail it gives me, and I also like the low-end. Although sometimes a bit boomy. I tried repositioning the speakers, but the stands are a bit small I guess and mainly, my living room isnt the best, being under the roof and slanted on on side.

I was looking into Yamaha NS 670/690 but i am not sure how they would work in such an environment. I wanted more options and somehow got here while researching. I really liked the part where you discussed the how Yamaha and Canton work well together. I have now a chance to get a pair of CT80s or Karat 300 dirt cheap and in good condition and I am puzzled if I should pull the plug. Any ideas which could work better ? I am adding the picture of the room for reference :-D. Thanks for any input.

Thy

 

[Bratwurst7s]

Hi all

Im new here and been reading a lot about vintage speakers lately because of my intentions of upgrading the speakers and limited budget. I have Cantons LE 500 paired with an Yamaha M65/C65 combo that I stumbled upon by chance in my local charity shop a few years ago. I do like the sound synergy of the setup, the detail it gives me, and I also like the low-end. Although sometimes a bit boomy. I tried repositioning the speakers, but the stands are a bit small I guess and mainly, my living room isnt the best, being under the roof and slanted on on side.

I was looking into Yamaha NS 670/690 but i am not sure how they would work in such an environment. I wanted more options and somehow got here while researching. I really liked the part where you discussed the how Yamaha and Canton work well together. I have now a chance to get a pair of CT80s or Karat 300 dirt cheap and in good condition and I am puzzled if I should pull the plug. Any ideas which could work better ? I am adding the picture of the room for reference :-D. Thanks for any input.
View attachment 1755982
Thy

Hi Thy, and welcome to Audiokarma,

I'll answer in more detail shortly but of the 2 I'd go with the Karat 300. Give me some time to deal with some stuff and I'll explain my thoughts.

Cheers,
James

 

[Bratwurst7s]

OK, interesting that you are the second person that has asked about CT-80's in the last 48hrs. But first, about the Karat 300s.

I've owned or heard all around the K-300, but have not listened to them. But after listening to LE-600, Quinto 510, 520 & 530, Karat 200, Karat 60 and CT 80 I think that I can make a pretty educated guess about the Karat 300. And that would be that I think that they fit right into a pretty sweet spot size wise, and am guessing that they sound very good. I do have to admit to a bit of a bias in that I do prefer acoustic-suspension speakers over bass-reflex.

Concerning the CT 80. First, and this is important, they were made for 2 years, with revisions happening every 6 months. The very first revision has the same size cabinets as the later 3 but are closed boxes, they do not have a port and use different woofers (3125 vs 4903). The later 3 revisions have a port in the front, to the right of and between the woofer and mid. The port is under the velour material covering the face and is hard to see.

I had a pair of them here for testing last month, they were the closed box version. My friend has owned them for several years and has complained since shortly after buying them that they have a very overdone and boomy bass, and that if he turned them up "the woofers start to flutter". And they do.

We have had them hooked up to 3 different amps and 3 different cd players and the woofers are resonating badly. They have been recapped and all of the crossover components checked. We tried a tested replacement CT 80 crossover in one box. We replaced a woofer with a tested correct 3125 woofer. We checked all cabinet seams and added a bead of glue on the inside. We cut new closed cell foam driver seals. None of that helped at all. The speakers sounded like crap.

The only think that helped was to add more fiberglass cabinet filling. Originally they were about 2/3 full, I added bats until they were completely filled. This helped a fair amount but the woofers are still resonating somewhat and the bass doesn't sound very good. These are the first pair of Canton speakers that I have listened to that I can not like. I sold my friend my Karat 60's for a very nominal sum and he is completely happy with them, they are in fact very fine sounding speakers. I am still baffled by the CT 80s. My feeling is that the cabinet is far too large to act as an acoustic suspension and that they are acting more like an infinite baffle with not enough woofer control. Note that the amps used were my friends Yamaha AX-700 & AX-750 (recapped) both with 110wpc and my MX-1, so having enough power to control the woofers or enough damping factor didn't play a role.

Note again that the above comments only apply to the first revision of the CT 80. Having seen the schematics for the CT 80 and 90 I see that both of them had an initial version with a 3xxx series woofer that was changed to a 4xxx series with the follow-up revisions. I have not heard the later versions but believe that they probably sound much better. Our member morfeora has a pair of CT 90's and loves them. I am not meaning to globally trash the CT 80, just passing on my puzzling experience with one pair. But I'd be real careful to find out which revision they are before considering buying them.

I'm including a photo found on the web that just barely shows where the port is on the ported versions.



Cheers,
James

 

[Bratwurst7s]

Oh, Thy, concerning your LE 500's. After looking at your photo I'd recommend getting them higher up from the floor, I think that the bass might be a little less boomy. Say, perhaps somewhere around 60cm. That's about 2 feet for those of you still inflicted with inches.

And yes, I really do believe that Canton + Yamaha = Happiness. And I'm pretty partial to Denon CD players also.

Cheers,
James

 

[Thy]

OK, interesting that you are the second person that has asked about CT-80's in the last 48hrs. But first, about the Karat 300s.

I've owned or heard all around the K-300, but have not listened to them. But after listening to LE-600, Quinto 510, 520 & 530, Karat 200, Karat 60 and CT 80 I think that I can make a pretty educated guess about the Karat 300. And that would be that I think that they fit right into a pretty sweet spot size wise, and am guessing that they sound very good. I do have to admit to a bit of a bias in that I do prefer acoustic-suspension speakers over bass-reflex.

Concerning the CT 80. First, and this is important, they were made for 2 years, with revisions happening every 6 months. The very first revision has the same size cabinets as the later 3 but are closed boxes, they do not have a port and use different woofers (3125 vs 4903). The later 3 revisions have a port in the front, to the right of and between the woofer and mid. The port is under the velour material covering the face and is hard to see.

I had a pair of them here for testing last month, they were the closed box version. My friend has owned them for several years and has complained since shortly after buying them that they have a very overdone and boomy bass, and that if he turned them up "the woofers start to flutter". And they do.

We have had them hooked up to 3 different amps and 3 different cd players and the woofers are resonating badly. They have been recapped and all of the crossover components checked. We tried a tested replacement CT 80 crossover in one box. We replaced a woofer with a tested correct 3125 woofer. We checked all cabinet seams and added a bead of glue on the inside. We cut new closed cell foam driver seals. None of that helped at all. The speakers sounded like crap.

The only think that helped was to add more fiberglass cabinet filling. Originally they were about 2/3 full, I added bats until they were completely filled. This helped a fair amount but the woofers are still resonating somewhat and the bass doesn't sound very good. These are the first pair of Canton speakers that I have listened to that I can not like. I sold my friend my Karat 60's for a very nominal sum and he is completely happy with them, they are in fact very fine sounding speakers. I am still baffled by the CT 80s. My feeling is that the cabinet is far too large to act as an acoustic suspension and that they are acting more like an infinite baffle with not enough woofer control. Note that the amps used were my friends Yamaha AX-700 & AX-750 (recapped) both with 110wpc and my MX-1, so having enough power to control the woofers or enough damping factor didn't play a role.

Note again that the above comments only apply to the first revision of the CT 80. Having seen the schematics for the CT 80 and 90 I see that both of them had an initial version with a 3xxx series woofer that was changed to a 4xxx series with the follow-up revisions. I have not heard the later versions but believe that they probably sound much better. Our member morfeora has a pair of CT 90's and loves them. I am not meaning to globally trash the CT 80, just passing on my puzzling experience with one pair. But I'd be real careful to find out which revision they are before considering buying them.

I'm including a photo found on the web that just barely shows where the port is on the ported versions.

View attachment 1758093

Cheers,
James

Hey James

Thank you for the reply. Really informative stuff. I have seen the CT 80 auctioned on e-bay in black and in really nice condition it seemed. Cannot get to the pictures anymore and they had the grilles on anyway so hard to tell what they were. They went for 130 Euros today in the afternoon. . Were on 120 until 20 minutes before the end. Did not get them but it was really a tease :-D.

I guess the Karat 300s would be a nice choice then, or maybe the generation later. Something of the likes of Karat 40. Then again the Karat 40 seems to be built the same way and the same woofer/drivers as the CT80. One more question: given the setup, and stands will the difference be noticeable? Between the LE 500 and the Karat 300s i mean. Sorry to bother you more.

Thank you
Martin

ps: how did you know I have a Denon CD player? I have the DCD 560 and although not high-end, I am very pleased with it. Just need to get a remote.

 

[Bratwurst7s]

Hi Martin,

After my experience with the Karat 60s I would have to guess that the 40's also sound good. The 60's are the direct follow-on to the 300's. Regardless of the K-60's & K-40's using the same drivers as the CT's, I can say that the K-60's sound pretty damn good. I believe strongly that the K-40's will be similar. Also consider a pair of CT 800's if you see them. Call them a small upscale to the Karat 60.

One thing about all of the CT speakers that I have seen so far is that no matter how they are painted there is actual wood veneer under the paint. Unlike the painted Karat speakers where under the paint you will find plain MDF.

I think that yes, the 300's would be a nice step up from the LE-500. But I would recap the 300's with some nice Mundorf MKP's for the small caps and Mundors un-etched electrolytics for the rest. Throw on a 0.1µF bypass cap in parallel with the tweeter cap for some extra goodness.

LOL about the Denon CD player. My experience is that all of the Denon remotes for players in the '90s at least will work with any player. The RC-241 and 242 seem to be readily available for relatively low prices, that's what I've been mostly buying.

Cheers,
James

 

[Canton_kid]

Once I found my pair of CT-1000s I was hooked for life. As many have stated, they are not as popular as say more well known brands like DCM, Pioneer, JBL, etc. As a result they fly under the radar and can be found for cheap (if one searches the right places). Ive got CT-80s, CT-1000s, Plus S/C combo, and Karat 200s. I may also have lead on some Karat 40s but we will see how that deal plays out. Anyway congrats on being bitten by the Canton bug!

 

[Thy]

Hey guys.

Took me some time to get back here. Wanted to write a few times but been a bit busy the last month and a half.
Anyway, In the end I got my hands on a pair of Karat 300. For 120 Euro in the walnut finish. They are beautiful even if there is an occasional scratch here and there. I have to say, combined with the Yamaha M/C 65 they sound really fantastic, have great dynamics and are truly a few leagues above the LE500 /also size wise/. Those now wait for a buyer . With this in mind I have a few things that Id like to share:

1. First a bit off topic. After I got the speakers I had a few A-HA moments that are really silly in retrospect. First I realized I have been using the small speaker stands upside-down. For 3 years. I didn't notice that they can be angled in 3 steps. Second, around the same time I got to know that the pre-amp has a tone-bypass button. It is always on now. I thought i am past being the NOOB.

2. Whoever said that the speakers lack bass. I seriously don't understand what you are talking about. There is a good, very well defined low end and oomph when the track has it in the mix. That is why they are described as neutral I guess. Not everywhere, just where intended. A nice track to test this among others for me is Sacrilegium I from Zeal & Ardor.

3. I have been writing about the size and shape of the living room and here lies a slight downside: the low end from the 26 cm woofer can sometimes be too much. Not for me per say, but for the neighbor it seems. I moved the speakers more away from the wall and also sideways so that they are more centered, but it didn't help much. I don't think higher stands will help here. The upper edge of the speaker is around 70 cm high and our couch sits quite low, so my ears while listening are slightly higher than the tweeter. It a problem with physics.
Don't get me wrong, I like what I hear. It just makes me a bit uneasy sometimes. I guess it has also something to do with the construction of the building I live in. Post WW2 with wooden frames, mortar and thinner walls. Compensating with listening at lower volumes and using the loudness control seems to help. Granted, not an audiophile thing to do, but it works quite well and nothing sound really exaggerated. I guess HiFi should be enjoyed this way anyway.
And with this out of the way:

4. The amount of detail I am now able to pickup in tracks with this combo is beyond belief for me. In all genres. Everything sound really neutral and just as intended. Even with the loudness on if that makes sense. It is exactly what I have been looking for.
There is one downside to this again, which is that now I am able /or so I think/ to distinguish records with a good sound mix and the really bad ones. I have the system hooked up to the TV via a DAC /Topping d50/ and let me tell you the audio tracks in Netflix and newer movies are sometimes quite angering. I guess they don't think about people with proper audio these days.

So, all and all, I really like the Karat 300 a lot and I am definitely keeping them. If you have the chance of grabbing these i'd say they are worth it. I'd happily pay double maybe even tripple. If you have the means to drive them properly you will be rewarded.

There is just this thought on my mind now and that is if the Karat 200 wouldn't be a better fit for the room, given that they have a smaller woofer.... hmm :-D

 

[Bratwurst7s]

Hi Thy,

I highly suggest that you do try raising the speakers up higher. I think that you will find that it helps with the bass. For a fairly cheap way to test that try some of these Ikea stools:
https://www.ikea.com/de/de/p/oddvar-hocker-kiefer-20249330/

The nice thing about this experiment is that if they don't help you still have a pair of useful stools. If it does help you could screw some spikes in the legs and put a piece of granite under them. The granite and spikes will do a lot to isolate the speakers from your neighbors.

Anyway, I think that you have put together a pretty nice system. Enjoy it.

Cheers,
James

 

[OlehM]

Bratwurst7s

Hi, James (and sorry for necroposting )

i can't make a choice between Karat 300 and Karat 60. Of course I see difference : sensitivity, another type of mid- and HF speakers, bigger cabinet and another crossover.
So, about crossover. In 300's separation points are 850/4200 Hz and 60's - 450/4000Hz. Is it important ? I mean, is it result of Canton's research and development and real noticeable upgrade or not ?
For example, newer (or even the newest) Canton Smart Vento 9 has crossover with 180/3100Hz.

And finally, mid speaker type dome (K300) vs cone (K60) pros and cons or it doesn't matter ?

Now i have Heco PCX-1. They are good, but i want deeper LF.

Thx in advance !

 

[Bratwurst7s]

Hi Oleh, and welcome to Audiokarma.

I'll try to answer your questions but I can't give you 100% definitive answers, just my guesses and thoughts.

I haven't owned or heard Karat 300's, only 100 and 200 models of this series. I have owned and used Karat 60's.

The 300 has a 38mm dome mid. The midrange crossover point is dictated by the lowest useful response of the driver and that is largely dictated by the driver diameter and mass, so that 38mm dome simply can not play as low as the 120mm cone used in the 60, therefore the 850hz crossover point. However there is a trade-off because while the larger diameter of the 120mm cone can play lower than the smaller dome it can't play as high as the 38mm dome, so that is why the upper crossover point in the 60 is a bit lower than the 300.

By switching to the larger cone mid in the 60 Canton was able to lower the lower-mid crossover point and let the mid take over some of the midbass that the woofer was having to produce in the 300. That lets the woofer work in a range where there is less concern of cone resonance and breakup, so you get some cleaner bass, and the smaller 120mm cone can produce some cleaner midbass than the large woofer cone. At the same time the mid is not so large that the upper crossover point has to be drastically lowered compared to the 38mm dome. That mid 120mm mid is working a pretty sweet range that covers most of vocals and guitar.

The Karat 60 has a small (50mm) port that helps with the bass response, that is most likely why the cabinet is a bit larger than the 300.

The Karat 60 is a very nice sounding speaker and if the Karat 200 is representative of what the 300 sounds like I'm sure that the 300 is also a very good sounding speaker but if bass response is highly important to you I'm going to guess that you might like the 60 more than the 300.

I hope that this helps.

Cheers,
James

 

[OlehM]

Hi, James and thx for answer !

well, sounds good ! like K60 is best buy for me
But as far as i see K300 is easier to find.

Btw, now in my 'music' room distance between speakers approx. 3 meters (and to place for listening) is it okay for these big enough K60's ?

 

[Canton_kid]

Hi, James and thx for answer !

well, sounds good ! like K60 is best buy for me
But as far as i see K300 is easier to find.

Btw, now in my 'music' room distance between speakers approx. 3 meters (and to place for listening) is it okay for these big enough K60's ?

I 2nd the Karat 60 over the 300s. I have the 200s and prefer the canton cone midrange over their domes.

 

[OlehM]

I 2nd the Karat 60 over the 300s. I have the 200s and prefer the canton cone midrange over their domes.

ok, thx for responding.
i hope i'll find K60 in good condition

btw, i have denon pma-715 amp ( 65W on 8Ohm ; 120W on 4Ohm load). is it ok or do i need something more powerfull ? (now with Heco PCX-1 (sensitivity ~90dB) typically use volume aprox. 9-10 oclock).

 

[Canton_kid]

ok, thx for responding.
i hope i'll find K60 in good condition

btw, i have denon pma-715 amp ( 65W on 8Ohm ; 120W on 4Ohm load). is it ok or do i need something more powerfull ? (now with Heco PCX-1 (sensitivity ~90dB) typically use volume aprox. 9-10 oclock).

120W at 4 ohm is ok. Cantons love power. I have CT-2000s (shown in my pfp) and they love power. I use mine with an Adcom GFA-545II. It does about 120W at 4 ohms. But I can tell they need more

 

[Stamata]

Hey guys! I own a Denon PMA -737 (55W on 8ohm), along with Canton Karat 200 (8ohm). I have the opportunity to buy Canton Karat 300 (8ohm) in good shape for 200 EUR. Do you think it's a significant upgrade? I love Karat 200s, but my fingers are itching to try the 300s.
Also, would Denon PMA-737 have enough power for 300s?
Maybe these are silly questions - noob here

Thank you!

 

[Bratwurst7s]

Hey guys! I own a Denon PMA -737 (55W on 8ohm), along with Canton Karat 200 (8ohm). I have the opportunity to buy Canton Karat 300 (8ohm) in good shape for 200 EUR. Do you think it's a significant upgrade? I love Karat 200s, but my fingers are itching to try the 300s.
Also, would Denon PMA-737 have enough power for 300s?
Maybe these are silly questions - noob here

Thank you!

Welcome to Audiokarma Stamta.

I would say that the 300's are potentially an improvement over the 200's, but not with your amp. In my opinion your K 200's would respond better with an amp that puts out 85wpc+ (RMS), and that the 300's would pair best with an amp that delivers 110w+. (Note the +.) That said, at moderate volume, the speakers will still sound decent with your amp, but will sound better with more power and your amp will start to clip quickly when too much demands are placed on it.

Your questions are not at all silly. Seeking information is always good I think.

Cheers,
James

 

[Stamata]

Thank you James, your reply is much appreciated.

I am now switching focus towards a new amp - I see Denon PMA 770 for 200 EUR to pair with Karat 200s.
My fingers are still itching for those 300s, but an adequate amp would go above what I am willing to spend right now.

 

[Stamata]

So, I bought both Denon PMA 770 and Canton Karat 300 (100W per channel, let's see how that goes). I still haven't had much time to listen to the system, but I hope to do some A/B testing (Karat 200 vs Karat 300 on PMA 770) in the upcoming weeks.