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Cartridge Preference Comparison

JP

JP

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Mounted a new cartridge up today, and while giving it a listen I thought it sounded very similar to one I listened to a few weeks ago, so I did some comparisons... and indeed it does! Thought it would be fun to see what others thought.

Here are four different samples in a simple A/B format, where A and B will be randomized each time. The score at the end will indicate if you had a preference - remember which one you preferred and I'll reveal what the carts are in a few weeks.

Bill Evans
Norah Jones
Steely Dan
Smashing Pumpkins
 
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This is the smashing pumpkins
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This is from the smashing pumpkins sample
I couldn't really tell them apart. I think the p value means I have no significant preference?

That said, if I'm honest I would like to hear music that is more difficult to track, especially regarding IGD, as I think that's where the biggest audible differences are made between cartridges.
But that requires a more difficult test to cook up. It's way easier to find music that sounds good and generally the same on different cartridges than to find the tracks that show big differences between cartridges.
I think I pick my cartridges that only differentiate themselves from other cartridges on only a few percent of the time in music.
But that few percent causes the biggest annoyances to my ears.

What is also difficult in these tests is that you cant foreward or go back into the music to listen to a specific fragment repeatedly.
Of course this is a debatable feature because in general you don't listen to music in this way, but I find it a big increase whether or not there are audible differences to be found. But then it becomes more something like audio analysis with the ear instead of listening to music.
 
BTW I tried distinguishing the files blind with the possibility of focussing in on a particular small segment, but even then I couldn't get a significant result:
1708218408798.png

This is again with the smashing pumpkins test fragments.
You can see on which segment I focussed, mainly on how hi-hats/cymbals came through in an otherwise high dynamic section.
60% correct where 50% is the norm, is not very significant....

I'm eager to know which cartridges they are and if they are pretty similar (for example same stylus shape) or radically different.

And this is whether or not I can tell the difference. Not even which one I preferred.
If I'm honest, I thought I preffered cartridge B in these tests, but in reality...it seems I can't really tell the difference :biggrin::rolleyes:.
 
Preference is similar to ABX, but less formal. If they can be distinguished you’d expect something like 18/20. I can randomly choose and score 8/10 in about 10 trials.
 
I did the test with the Nora Jones clip, and forgot to get a screenshot…

The cartridges were very close indeed, and my selection score was 5/10… which is to say I could not discern at all one from the other.
 
I have a couple of them I swap back and forth periodically. Pickering XV-15 with Stanton stylus. Shure 95ED with a Kyowa elliptical stylus, Empire 66/X with Pfanstiehl 4237-DEC polished elliptical stylus and a Pickering V-15 with a Pickering D1500 stylus.

The two options that my wife thinks sound best are the Shure 95ED and the Pickering XV-15 and the Stanton stylus.
 
mr_petit said:
That said, if I'm honest I would like to hear music that is more difficult to track, especially regarding IGD, as I think that's where the biggest audible differences are made between cartridges.
Click to expand...

Here's an inner groove comparison of the two cartridges. This is much easier to differentiate - I used the first three seconds of the track to do so. I think tonality is the same, but one is betrayed by the reality of being an 8/18µm elliptical.


Screenshot 2024-02-19 at 5.11.15 PM.png
 
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This one was supereasy. The first few words are indeed enough to hear which one is miles and miles better.
But the classic igd tracking is especially heard in the 3rd sentence when she says "like a schoolkid" where you immediately hear in cartridge B in the right channel the classic IGD, like a newspaper is torn apart (obviously there are more moments of sibilants and fricatives in the fragment where it can be heard). Very irritating. To me this is the most irritating and most audible form of distortion coming from a cartridge and therefore one of the most important parameters to grade cartridges on.
This is exactly the type of track where good tracking carts (mostly stylus profile) make the real difference, and where more complex stylus shapes earn their place.
But knowing what cartridges I'm listening to, I'm also fairly confident that the performance of cartridge A can be pretty closely matched by the $130 costing AT-VM95ML ;)

BTW, I have 1 record (that I know of) where I presume IGD is happening in the mid frequencies (so not the classic 'S' sibilants), which gives a really aweful effect.
 
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There are a couple spots where cartridge A doesn't fair too well either. The dynamics on this mastering/cut are fairly hot, and we're at about 72mm for that portion of the track.
 
JP said:
Why not - unusually low activity on it anyway.

A - Lyra Kleos
B - Ortofon 2M Blue

Not a typo. No, I didn't mix up any files.
Click to expand...
What?! That’s stunning. I’ll bet if people had an idea it was a $200 cart vs. a $4k(?) cart and telling them apart was damn near impossible in places, there would have been a few more guesses. I’ve never had a 2M Blue, but my Super OM 20 is no slouch, until you get to the inner grooves on some records. Then it can’t keep up with a ML profile.

In your opinion, does this speak more to the quality of the 2M Blue or point to the Lyra Kleos being somewhat overrated? Or something else?
 
drmevo said:
Then it can’t keep up with a ML profile.
Click to expand...

Yes - same with these examples, though the Lyra isn’t an ML/MR so it does exhibit HF loss on inner grooves though tracks fine, at least when new.

drmevo said:
In your opinion, does this speak more to the quality of the 2M Blue or point to the Lyra Kleos being somewhat overrated? Or something else?
Click to expand...

The signal is frequency, amplitude, and phase. If the stylus isn’t losing contact or having geometrical issues I find that FR dominates, which is what this was based on.
 
JP said:
or do people want more time?
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This topic shines in the absence of the usual regulars in this forumsection that usually jump on new topics within a few hours...
I don't think it's a matter of needing more time ;):biggrin:
JP said:
though tracks fine, at least when new.
Click to expand...
In your IGD sample I found 1 strange inconsistency with the Kleos, and that is in the file at ~22,5sec, where she sings the word 'waiting'.
At the letter W, in the left channel, there is a mistracking that is quite annoying. The 2M blue doesn't have that on that particular spot strangely enough.

Apart from that it's difficult to rate the Kleos without a comparison to another good inner groove tracker I think.
 
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mr_petit said:
In your IGD sample I found 1 strange inconsistency with the Kleos, and that is in the file at ~22,5sec, where she sings the word 'waiting'.
At the letter W, in the left channel, there is a mistracking that is quite annoying. The 2M blue doesn't have that on that particular spot strangely enough.
Click to expand...

The 2M does, but it's extremely subtle - was far easier to hear without RIAA de-emphasis. I'm leaning toward that being in the record, but we'll never know for sure.
 
Yes, it could be in the record. Hard to tell without listening to it with another good tracking stylus.

Is this from a recent reïssue or from the 2002 (or 2004) pressing?
There are not that many modern albums that are still cut hot on the inner grooves, which is a shame. (at least, it's a shame if you have a cartridge with an advanced stylus shape so that it can take the advantage of wider frequency range and less noise)
 
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