Cartridge Preference Comparison

[mr_petit]

Do a blind test with an analog music signal that has been digitized once, and one that has been digitized again and see if you can hear the difference.
I couldn't. Using an old emu 0404 usb audio interface I bought for $25 (so not really exotic and expensive hardware....)

I don't know what'll happen if you do this say...10 or 100 times, I didn't do that test, so I can't tell if it's 100% transparant, but 1 time extra was indistinguishable to me.

I also think 99% (or 99,9% if you can get that many people) can tell the difference between different DAC's/audio interfaces in a blind test.
That is, DAC's of a reasonable quality.
I mean, there are/have been of course very cheap and poor soundcards made, I had a very cheap 5.1 USB soundcard 20-25 years ago that did sound aweful. That was a Hercules Muse pocket LT, one like this:

I imagine stuff similar like this is still being sold on aliexpress as a cheap usb soundcard <$10, that will give audible differences.

 

[cafe latte]

Do a blind test with an analog music signal that has been digitized once, and one that has been digitized again and see if you can hear the difference.
I couldn't. Using an old emu 0404 usb audio interface I bought for $25 (so not really exotic and expensive hardware....)

I don't know what'll happen if you do this say...10 or 100 times, I didn't do that test, so I can't tell if it's 100% transparant, but 1 time extra was indistinguishable to me.

I can easily hear the difference between my cd8se and my Oppo 105d and easily hear differences when I record using my cd burner and or my Tascam.
My system is rather revieling, speakers ATC scm 100's so small changes are quite obvious.
A while ago I did recording tests listening for changes in carts. It worked in that playing back and forth I could focus on a single note again and again, but where it failed was both recorded tracks sounded different to the non recorded one. It was still helpful as it was interesting to listen for differences in the two versions of the Grado I was testing and both were recorded so that difference was eliminated, but on playing the real cart against the recorded one it was obvious on my system.
It is foolish to think all cd players and dacs sound the same, for example Burr brown and sabre sound very different.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

Do a blind test with an analog music signal that has been digitized once, and one that has been digitized again and see if you can hear the difference.
I couldn't. Using an old emu 0404 usb audio interface I bought for $25 (so not really exotic and expensive hardware....)

I don't know what'll happen if you do this say...10 or 100 times, I didn't do that test, so I can't tell if it's 100% transparant, but 1 time extra was indistinguishable to me.

I also think 99% (or 99,9% if you can get that many people) can tell the difference between different DAC's/audio interfaces in a blind test.
That is, DAC's of a reasonable quality.
I mean, there are/have been of course very cheap and poor soundcards made, I had a very cheap 5.1 USB soundcard 20-25 years ago that did sound aweful. That was a Hercules Muse pocket LT, one like this:

I imagine stuff similar like this is still being sold on aliexpress as a cheap usb soundcard <$10, that will give audible differences.

It is not just the chip itself, but clocking and filters that make the sound. I am sure most in most systems wont hear a difference, but most these days are happy with a mono Alexia for music. Listen to a 20 dollar dac and listen to a 1k one and a 10 k one and tell me they all sound the same on a decent system.
Also we dont judge the cartridge we like with one song, to understand a cartridge it takes maybe a week with varied music, well that is how I decide which carts I like, after a week or so the suptle changes will be way more obvious.
Even listening to my friends 2M black was nice for a track or two, but at the end of the evening it was wearing me down.
Chris

 

[mr_petit]

Without blind testing we'll never know if you really hear the differences you say you do and whether or not we also hear those differences.
One thing is for sure, I didn't see your score in this topic picking out the different cartridges.

 

[cafe latte]

Without blind testing we'll never know if you really hear the differences you say you do and whether or not we also hear those differences.
One thing is for sure, I didn't see your score in this topic picking out the different cartridges.

I agree with blind testing, but not with digital files I am not familiar with testing an analogue cartridge. Also even if the comparison was not digital files there needs to be far more songs or albums all which one is familiar with.
Comparison of digital files is not a comparison of the cartridges it is only a comparison of the files recorded on your gear played back on mine. Everyone will play back on different days or burned cds so the files will sound different for everyone.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

Without blind testing we'll never know if you really hear the differences you say you do and whether or not we also hear those differences.
One thing is for sure, I didn't see your score in this topic picking out the different cartridges.

This test relies on the premise that every day, cd player, cd burnerand digital recorder sound identical from 20 buck to 20k.
Unfortunately they don't, burners, players and different dac all sound very different.
Chris

 

[mr_petit]

The gist of the test in this topic was if you could hear a difference. The familiairity of the music plays no role in this. And there were 4 tracks with very different music to choose from, so even if some kinds of music make it more difficult to tell cartridges apart, another style could be chosen.

Also the whether or not the file is digital makes no real sense. Both files are digital, so even if digitalisation has an impact, which I doubt and could easily be blind tested by putting the signal again through the adc-dac, it's the same for both files.

I'm guessing that @JP will come up with a test with 1 file digitized once and 1 file digitizend twice (or even more) to let our ears decide whether or not digital conversion is transparant And I'm sure, based on your statements, that you will be able to pick out which one is which, or tell them apart at least.
I trust you will participate in that test when the time comes

 

[cafe latte]

The gist of the test in this topic was if you could hear a difference. The familiairity of the music plays no role in this. And there were 4 tracks with very different music to choose from, so even if some kinds of music make it more difficult to tell cartridges apart, another style could be chosen.

Also the whether or not the file is digital makes no real sense. Both files are digital, so even if digitalisation has an impact, which I doubt and could easily be blind tested by putting the signal again through the adc-dac, it's the same for both files.

I'm guessing that @JP will come up with a test with 1 file digitized once and 1 file digitizend twice (or even more) to let our ears decide whether or not digital conversion is transparant And I'm sure, based on your statements, that you will be able to pick out which one is which, or tell them apart at least.
I trust you will participate in that test when the time comes

The issue is we are not listening to the cartridges when they are converted to digital and what you hear and what I hear will be dependant on what you and I am using to decode the digital. 4 tracks too is not enough, I will listen to maybe 5 albums deciding on a cartridge and all albums I know well. Knowing the test music very well plays a big role in the test as we know how a particular passage sound. For example a note with one cart may be fine, or it may be wince worthy with another cart. Being familar with the music is reallly important for a valid test.
It is very easy to say in a test like this that people cant distingush between a decent MC and a 2m blue, but the reality is the difference is large and most will pick the differences easily on their own systems with actual carts with familar music and more than 4 tracks. Most with familar music will pick the differences very quickly.
Chris

 

[mr_petit]

So basically what you're saying if you're playing just 1 side of a record at home (like 3-4 songs) it woudn't matter what cartridge you would use as differences in cartridges would only appear when you've heard maybe 5 full albums in a row?


Whether or not digitalisation has an influence is easy tested by blindly comparing one file to the other that has undergone the ad-da process an extra time.
If no distinction can be made ABX blindly, it means the process is transparant to the ear. If that would still give difference in your ears on your dac, and you would fail the blind test, it would mean that your dac is sub par compared to the adc and dac that were used to create the files or your experience isn't blind.

 

[cafe latte]

So basically what you're saygin if you're playing just 1 side of a record at home (like 3-4 songs) it woudn't matter what cartridge you would use as differences in cartridges would only appear when you've heard maybe 5 full albums in a row?

Whether or not digitalisation has an influence is easy tested by blindly comparing one file to the other that has undergone the ad-da process an extra time.
If no distinction can be made ABX blindly, it means the process is transparant to the ear. If that would still give difference in your ears on your dac, and you would fail the blind test, it would mean that your dac is sub par compared to the adc and dac that were used to create the files or your opinion isn't blind.

No I am saying that listening to a song I dont know I have no mental reference as to how it sounds with other carts in my collection.
An evening listening to a 2m black for example when I listened to totally unfamilar music I enjoyed the first few tracks but by the end of the evening the 2m was starting to get on my nerves. Even with no reference album after album built a picture of how the cart sounds. With familar music you can build this picture much quicker as you have a reference point. Even not recorded one or two tracks in isolation that you dont have a reference point for is very hard. Add to this recorded and it is not only hard but pointless as the files dont sound like the origial cart anymore anyway.
This is a bit of fun, but it does not prove a lot or anything really.
I am quite sure most on this forum will pick a 2m blue against a MC really easily on their own system with there own music, I can easily with a 2m black never mind a blue.
Chris

 

[mr_petit]

No I am saying that listening to a song I dont know I have no mental reference as to how it sounds with other carts in my collection.
An evening listening to a 2m black for example when I listened to totally unfamilar music I enjoyed the first few tracks but by the end of the evening the 2m was starting to get on my nerves. Even with no reference album after album built a picture of how the cart sounds.

But that is not a blind test. I'm sure that if you'd do a blind test between a cart that didn't get on your nerve, you'd hear the difference. Also, you're looking at this from a cartridge grading pov. This test (the one from the topic start that is) doesn't work for that. If you can't hear a difference you can't grade.
The listening test in the topicstart only prooves that very different cartridges can sound very similar on certain tracks/records/songs.

Also, I'm not the one who's saying that there are no differences in the cartridges. If you can't hear differences in one song, it indeed doesn't mean you can't hear differences in another song on the record. In fact, I was the first one in this topic in the first reply on this topic that requested a song that was more difficult to track preferably on the inner grooves, as that's where big differences usually are made in my opinion:

That said, if I'm honest I would like to hear music that is more difficult to track, especially regarding IGD, as I think that's where the biggest audible differences are made between cartridges.

and JP honored that request and gave a song from the inner grooves, and suddenly everyone could hear the difference. By a mile.
But I don't need 5 albums for that to hear. I only need those songs/recordings that display such behaviour.

 

[JP]

This test relies on the premise that every day, cd player, cd burnerand digital recorder sound identical from 20 buck to 20k.
Unfortunately they don't, burners, players and different dac all sound very different.
Chris

No true Scotsman?

Evidence has consistently shown that the vast majority are audibly transparent. Generally it's the extraordinarily cheap and extraordinarily expensive that demonstrate audible problems. Regardless, as all the files are being compared through the same lens there's no practical argument: even if your DAC were that broken, the error would be applied to all. An error that nullifies separate differences is very far fetched. Very.

We rely on some semblance of competent execution with electronics as no one has heard the signal from a cartridge without electronics, and in the case of the response errors we find with cartridges, even a lot of poor stuff is good enough. If we take the logical extension of your objection then no comparison of anything could ever be valid. If my ADC or your DAC poses the magical ability to make everything sound the same, then why couldn't a phono stage, pre-amp, etc. do the same?

Familiarity with the test material is a usual excuse. Granted when listening cold that can help for gross (and real) differences, but in a controlled test it isn't necessary, and can sometimes decrease sensitivity as more emotion comes in to the picture. It helps, of course, if the music isn't off-putting, which is part of the reason I select rather different genres.

In other posts you've written that two carts with very similar frequency response will sound the same, and I've also seen you bring up bias in aid of your arguments. Yet here suddenly bias doesn't matter (your testing and hifi store example) and even though these two carts have close enough response to be indistinguishable when geometry isn't part of the picture, it's now far-fetched that they can possible sound the same?

 

[JP]

I'm guessing that @JP will come up with a test with 1 file digitized once and 1 file digitizend twice (or even more) to let our ears decide whether or not digital conversion is transparant And I'm sure, based on your statements, that you will be able to pick out which one is which, or tell them apart at least.
I trust you will participate in that test when the time comes

Here's an 8th generation test. There were some tells in the files but it seems they've been removed from the Fionna example (I didn't confirm). We did similar generational tests over twenty years ago - a large number of generations was really difficult to create due to compound clock "error" - infinitesimal but when compounded it creates discontinuity when switching which 1) destroys sensitivity and 2) gives a sure-fire way for people to cheat.

 

[Chad Michael]

- preferred the Lyra (can't afford)
- Ortofon 2m Blue - could afford, but I think there are carts in the price range with sonic signatures that I would prefer

 

[cafe latte]

No true Scotsman?

Evidence has consistently shown that the vast majority are audibly transparent. Generally it's the extraordinarily cheap and extraordinarily expensive that demonstrate audible problems. Regardless, as all the files are being compared through the same lens there's no practical argument: even if your DAC were that broken, the error would be applied to all. An error that nullifies separate differences is very far fetched. Very.

We rely on some semblance of competent execution with electronics as no one has heard the signal from a cartridge without electronics, and in the case of the response errors we find with cartridges, even a lot of poor stuff is good enough. If we take the logical extension of your objection then no comparison of anything could ever be valid. If my ADC or your DAC poses the magical ability to make everything sound the same, then why couldn't a phono stage, pre-amp, etc. do the same?

Familiarity with the test material is a usual excuse. Granted when listening cold that can help for gross (and real) differences, but in a controlled test it isn't necessary, and can sometimes decrease sensitivity as more emotion comes in to the picture. It helps, of course, if the music isn't off-putting, which is part of the reason I select rather different genres.

In other posts you've written that two carts with very similar frequency response will sound the same, and I've also seen you bring up bias in aid of your arguments. Yet here suddenly bias doesn't matter (your testing and hifi store example) and even though these two carts have close enough response to be indistinguishable when geometry isn't part of the picture, it's now far-fetched that they can possible sound the same?

No I did not, in thr past I was discussing stylus profiles and frequency response, not cartridge. The frequency plot was the same cartridge body with different profile stylus and they were said to sound the same in the review and the measurements backed that up as the frequency plots were the same.
We can agree to disagree re all days and recorders sounding the same as it is simply not true, my experience is thry can sound very different.
Pre-amplifiers and amps all have a sound, bit thry don't have clocks and steep back wall filters etc.
Not at all against this thread, it is a bit of fun, I just don't think you can draw too many conclusions from it.
People not being able to tell which is the 2m blue from recorded files of unfamiliar music does not mean they would nit be able to tell instantly on their own hifi with a record they know well and not a file but a real cartridge.
Chris

 

[JP]

No I did not, in thr past I was discussing stylus profiles and frequency response, not cartridge. The frequency plot was the same cartridge body with different profile stylus and they were said to sound the same in the review and the measurements backed that up as the frequency plots were the same.

If frequency response can predict two styli sounding the same, why can it not predict two cartridges sounding the same? After all, things that may actually drive audibly such as distortion are going to be a product of the styli for the most part. There's some serious discontinuity in the logic here.

We can agree to disagree re all days and recorders sounding the same as it is simply not true, my experience is thry can sound very different.
Pre-amplifiers and amps all have a sound, bit thry don't have clocks and steep back wall filters etc.

The tropes and straw men aside, what was the protocol, procedure, and applied controls for these tests?

 

[cafe latte]

If frequency response can predict two styli sounding the same, why can it not predict two cartridges sounding the same? After all, things that may actually drive audibly such as distortion are going to be a product of the styli for the most part. There's some serious discontinuity in the logic here.



The tropes and straw men aside, what was the protocol, procedure, and applied controls for these tests?

This is the nonsense usual circular argument you always do.
The stylus when the carts were reviewed the reviewers thought they sounded basically the same and the plots backed that up. Stylus are not valves in other words changing the profile does not change the sound. All things being equal ie tip mass etc profiles from 0.2x0.7 upwards all are able to track the high frequences in a similar way. On unworn vinyl a 0.2x0.7 will sound identical to a Shibata and a micro ridge apart tracking the inner grooves a bit better will sound identical to a Shibata. I doubt anyone on this forum would be able to tell any exotic tips apart, stylus do not have a sonic signature , changing profile (apart maybe bonded and conical) means they just track complex passages and high a bit better we dont get dips in the frequency curve with different profiles. Carts however have different inductances, diffeent magnets or coil mass and many other factors so different carts of course sound different and these changes can usually be seen in the frequency plots, square waves etc. No straw men or other sly insults, just facts.
It is bizzare to claim that all cd players recorders and dacs sound the same, utterly bizzare and totally not true.
This whole thread to be honest is rather bizzare, trying to prove a 2m blue sounds the same as a decent MC using recorded files people are not familar with and some people it seems are playing the files with 20 dollars usb dacs and with this they are judging an expensive MC and comparing the 2m?
Utterly bonkers!
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

Think what we are saying here this study is so full of holes...
If I record a 20k MC and you play it back with a 20 dollar usb dac, do you seriously think you are hearing how that cart sounds?
Next what are people listening to these files on?
With a listening room and full range hi end speakers and hifi these carts will sound very different indeed. Recording of them played back with 20 dollar dacs with bookshelf speakers, or on a computer wirh headphones differences won't be so obvious.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

Apart the big question how people are listening to these files, like with headphones on a computer which some will be, what phono stage and loading was used to record them and how were they recorded?
If we are talking straw men, there seems to be a line of them..
Chris

 

[cgallery]

Think what we are saying here this study is so full of holes...
If I record a 20k MC and you play it back with a 20 dollar usb dac, do you seriously think you are hearing how that cart sounds?
Next what are people listening to these files on?
With a listening room and full range hi end speakers and hifi these carts will sound very different indeed. Recording of them played back with 20 dollar dacs with bookshelf speakers, or on a computer wirh headphones differences won't be so obvious.
Chris

Do you think if you record a $20k cartridge and $200 cartridge and listen via your preferred DAC, that you'll hear a difference?