JP
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For throughness:
Bill Evans - AJAZ-9939
Steely Dan - UHQR 0010-45
Smashing Pumpkins - 2011 180g Reissue
Bill Evans - AJAZ-9939
Steely Dan - UHQR 0010-45
Smashing Pumpkins - 2011 180g Reissue
Cartridge Preference Comparison
- Thread starter JP
- Start date
mr_petit
High on Vinyl
To me that makes a pretty strong case that a cartridge should mainly be chosen on how good it performs on the inner grooves.
So that test that we did in that topic with the tacet igd sibilance testtrack has quite a bit importance
Obviously there is a little bit of difference regarding (MM/MI) loading, but that is basically an eq or tone control
The igd distortion is totally different.
I think if you do the same test in the startpost but say with an AT-VM540ML and 2m blue, or some grado, nagaoka or other MM/MI in the sub€250 pricerange, there are still a lot of people that can't significantly point out a favorite. (P value of >0.05 I believe? statistics is not my strong point..)
However I think they'll blindly find an ML inbetween the elliptical stylii with that nora jones track.
In the end comparing a $3k lyra with a $200 ortofon doesn't really make sense except for the shock effect.
Comparing cartridges in somewhat the same pricerange is more useful. When that is done, it's very interesting to compare the winners in different price ranges.
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JP
7480 74111110101115
Depends on what you're intending to compare. This was about the sound outside of tracking/tracing, which is to say if two cartridges are able to accurately trace the groove, can they sound indistinguishable from each other if the frequency response is close enough, and the answer is yes. There are already demonstrations, including one in this thread, of what can happen with different stylus cuts toward the inner grooves.
A good next step would be to find an MR with similar frequency response for an inner groove comparison, and I've considered having an MR put on the 2M Blue though there are things that are more interesting to me that I'd rather do with that money. It'd be great if something already exists. Regardless, I think there is value to some people to have real world comparisons of what the performance differences actually are, and the reasons for them.
mr_petit
High on Vinyl
JP
7480 74111110101115
Wouldn't your at-vm95ml (with proper/adjusted loading) be somewhat of a fr match to the 2m blue?
The blind test would determine whether or not people would hear the difference
I'm pretty sure the inner norah jones track will give a more certain preference than the other tracks
Is there a point to that though, since we know there will be audible clues on an IG track like that between and elliptical and a MR?
mr_petit
High on Vinyl
Yes, my prediction/expectation is that differences between most modern cartridges can't be heard (by most people) on outer tracks of quality records. I've done blind tests in the past that people couldn't hear the difference between an at440mla, denon dl160 and at95e on outer and mid tracks of a quality record (they also couldn't pick the cd).
So if that goes for other cartridges, then the major reason to choose one cartridge over another, is how they perform on inner grooves.
This reminds me of that test Floyd Toole performed years ago, where participants were unable to distinguish cartridges which had been equalized to somewhat flatten them.
I had planned on building a new version of my DIY phono preamp some months ago, one that would allow lots of loading options to accommodate the special C/R needs of various models. But then I decided to just leave the preamp as-is (47k and no additional capacitance, whatever is in the cables is it), and instead add a parametric EQ filter (or two) via the MiniDSP I use as my crossover (I'm biamped).
This seems to work real well, although I will acknowledge that a lot of vinyl purists aren't interested in adding any DSP to their chain. But hopefully it will allow me to pretty much just concentrate on the tracking/tracing performance and stylus life, and correct any issues in the frequency domain. And I need DSP anyhow, it was already in the chain.
Still lots to learn.
I had planned on building a new version of my DIY phono preamp some months ago, one that would allow lots of loading options to accommodate the special C/R needs of various models. But then I decided to just leave the preamp as-is (47k and no additional capacitance, whatever is in the cables is it), and instead add a parametric EQ filter (or two) via the MiniDSP I use as my crossover (I'm biamped).
This seems to work real well, although I will acknowledge that a lot of vinyl purists aren't interested in adding any DSP to their chain. But hopefully it will allow me to pretty much just concentrate on the tracking/tracing performance and stylus life, and correct any issues in the frequency domain. And I need DSP anyhow, it was already in the chain.
Still lots to learn.
JP
7480 74111110101115
I'll have to refresh myself on the frequency response of those three, though I don't know if there's a trusted/relevant plot of the DL160 out there? My own non-tracking/tracing experiments were done by applying EQ to make frequency response similar, with the same result.
Seems the likely place to start would be the 500/700 family and/or the VM95 family, as I have all of those. There's a bit of a lack of motivation - of the ~50 cartridges currently in my measurement queue, they're the least interesting to me.
Need longer days.
JP
7480 74111110101115
IIRC, that was also about MM vs. MC, and he did point out that there was one person in a group that demonstrated potential "golden ear" capability? One of these reasons I thought these two were great for comparison, other than being at opposites ends of the fashion line, was that no signal manipulation of any kind was required.
A friend of a friend (have no idea who they are) managed 9/10 on the Norah ABX. My understanding is that they picked up on some sibilance where the difference wouldn't be audible without the ability to compare to a reference. I'm waiting to find out where in the track.
I've seen more and more people EQing cartridges to correct the response, which I think is great. As I went to an active crossover system using DSP not quite ten years ago, from a signal integrity standpoint it made sense to get everything in to the digital domain as soon as possible. I've not done any EQ outside of DSP RIAA, but that's just because I've a long list of cartridges to try/measure, and I always have a few of my flat favorites that never get dismounted from an armwand. Dialing in some EQ is a lot easier than messing around with loading, particularly with most off the shelf stuff.
JP
7480 74111110101115
The rest of the queue are top ~5 carts from the likes of Technics, Sony, Victor, Yamaha, Denon, etc. They of a manufacturing and materials caliber we'll likely never see again.
mr_petit
High on Vinyl
Ah yes I understand if you're comparing them to those few.
But if you're saying they're the least interesting, that means they're also less interesting as say.. that 2m blue?
And the big question... do those top ~5 you're mentioning....also sound better in a blind test? Because eventually that is their purpose
Because I think the AT-vm540ml and at-vm95ml might give them a run for their money when the testing becomes blind, also on the inner grooves where the 2m blue failed...
Also, in these tests, we're grading the carts to these specific music fragments.
Are there other fragments that might yield different results? Not specifically between the kleos and 2m blue, but fragments that may highlight specific strong or weak points of a cartridge.
I mean, we've already seen how inner grooves can cause massive (audible) IGD in the 2m blue compared to the kleos, but are there also fragments that might highlight big audible differences in say channel separation?
Because these fragments (save maybe the bill evans track) are not really that channel separated.
And I also expect some cartridges to perform different on parts of tracks that are dead silent. For instance when we did that tacet test track, I also put those tracks on a different forum, and 1 person (who I know is a critical and trained listener) had the remark that there was a strange resonance noise on the silent parts of your at-vm95ml track...(I didn't place all your files)
Turns out, all your at-vm95xx files have that strange resonance noise on the silent parts. But not only your at-vm95xx tracks, but also my at-95e track, and my at-3600l track...
Where the at-440mla track doesn't have this strange resonance.
So I think it turns out pretty much all 2 coil AT bodies of the last 40 years have this strange noise effect...(I had to go all the way back to an at-10 body to not hear this effect; I expect the at-10 range also to have 2 coils based upon their spectral inductance measurements, but I don't know for sure as I haven't opened up one)
Obviously it's not audible when there is signal, but when it stops and the track goes silent....it's audible if you listen good.
(I never read about this effect, but pretty awesome if you think of it, him discovering a flaw/feature in probably the worlds most sold cartridge type after all those years)
JP
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cafe latte
Addicted Member
The issue with these tests is we are not listening to the cartridges we are listening to digital recordings of them. Go to a hifi shop and listen to five different cd players or five different Dacs and you will hear five different presentations. Add to this record on say a decent cd burner or on instead record the file on a pro level Tascam or simiar and the file will sound different again.
If you buy a vinyl version of an album, and a cd version or a digital file, then record the vinyl onto a file you will have three totally different sounding albums.
I dont like 2m carts, they are too in your face for me, but I understand what people like about them. My friend loves that attack and bounce they have, I dont as I find it tiring.
These tests are a bit of fun, but we decide what carts we like with extended listening in our own system. I have over 100 carts and I have heard many many more due to my business. I dont judge the carts I test for a couple of track for work, I decided the carts I like with extended listening of the actual cart not listening to op amps.
Example, you put on say a Decca Jubillee for a track or two it tells you nothing, keep in on for a couple of weeks and what it does well and less well become more evident. All Decca for example are very " In the room " sounding but they dont have massive separation which is fine they still sound great. Swap to an Opus 3 and highs are extended but it is sweeter, but you wont tell much more right away. Listen for a week or two and different tracks will demonstrate it has very very good separation.
We cant test this with a couple of recording we are not familar with, adding to this the issues with digital recordings and playback too. Simple test record a record and play it back in real time whilst playing the vinyl copy back, switch between the two and they sound different. This is why I stopped recording my records.
Chris
cafe latte
Addicted Member
Nothing is broken.
If you go into a hifi shop and listen to a 10k cd player and a 200 dollar one by your rule we wont hear a difference. The truth is every cd player and Dac sounds different that is why people buy different ones and that is why they get reviewed. Add to this how the files are recorded, is is a proffesional Tascam or similar or is it a laptop, the sound will be very different. Sound files are not listening to cartridges, not even close.
The reason for the revival of vinyl was exactly this.
Chris
JP
7480 74111110101115
That’s not the truth, it’s your opinion, and it’s fallacious. There’s a mountain of data that clearly demonstrate not all DACs sound different. Even if you’ve a DAC whose performance is so poor that it does have audible defects, the thought that such a defect could render two different carts which you claim sound very different to sound the same is quite imaginative.