Carver C-4000 Preamp

[TRC]

First, it's good to be back at AK. I've been gone for quite sometime. "Life" sometimes gets in the way.

Anyway.. on to the subject at hand:

I have a Carver C-4000 preamp. I had removed it from the system some years ago simply because, for me, it didn't pass the sonics test. Very weak bass, very weak treble. I've read rave reviews on this unit, and it seems to hold it's value. I've had other Carver amps, preamps and receivers in the past.. they've all sounded the same.. weak and limp.

What I'd like to know is.. what am I doing wrong? I've connected it to different systems.. the result is the same.

I'm currently using a Parasound pre with a Bryston amp paired with Vandersteen speakers. This combination has that smooth, sweet sound I enjoy. The bass is smooth and rich, the mids flow like honey and highs are smooth yet crisp. Sounds like a good quality tube amp. In comparison, the Carver C-4000 sounds like a kids transistor radio. Not quite that bad.. but you get the idea...

Now, I realize certain equipment, for the best sound, needs to be "matched" electronically. For example: my Vandy's.. on any other amp / pre sounds absolutely awful. The "transistor radio" effect. However, with the Bryston.. they sing! I'm thinking the same thing with Carver.

I'm just about to toss the Carver out on it's ear.. (so to speak) as I'm cleaning out useless stuff. However, I thought I'd give it one last try. Your opinions please.

And BTW.. I'm not trolling or flaming, so please.. keeps the conversation civil.

Thanks

 

[run_around]

It could be a number of things, but possibly the biggest problem is age of capacitors.
If it hasn't been serviced, you could be having problems with the 35 year old capacitors.
I have a pair of TFM-15CB's that I use as mono blocks and 'weak and limp' aren't exactly the words I'd use to describe their sound.
I have them paired with a tube pre and they push a pair of B&W DM604's with ease.
I actually think they have a similar sound to my el34 tube amp (although with ~300 wpc instead of 40).
I haven't owned a Carver pre but have read enough about them that I would be more than open to trying one. (if you give up on it, give me a shout)

 

[TRC]

I have a TFM-15CB.. it can be loud.. but not beefy. No authority. I think because it's a digital amp. Last night I had connected the C-4000 into my Bryston 3B amp.. running into my Vandersteen speakers. The "bass" was.. I don't really know that I have the words to describe it. It was more like the tone control on a '61 Ford Falcon AM radio. I say that because years ago my folk's had one lol. No real "bass" at all. It sounded like.. take a handful of modeling clay.. flatten it.. then slap it against a sheet rocked wall. That's the best way I can describe it.

The caps are fine.. no bulging.. no leakage.. no hum.. Every piece of Carver equipment I've ever owned.. MXR-130 receiver, The Cube amp, then there was a combination preamp and tuner.. don't recall the model.. sounded weak and lifeless. No authority whatsoever. I'm not flaming or trolling, but people who use Carver equipment.. what kind of music do they listen to? I remember a guy one time who had a Carver setup.. a friend and I was over there one night.. he played Pink Floyd's "Dark Side Of The Moon" CD for us. It sounded just like every piece of Carver I've ever owned: weak, limp, lifeless.. no authority.. but IT *WAS* LOUD! In fact, my ears were hurting down inside. It was like fingernails on a chalkboard. And this guy actually considers himself an audiophile.

I've got another friend who actually IS an audiophile. Silver interconnects.. uses no tone controls.. he has a $100,000 system. I don't recall the brand name.. but the designer of the equipment.. amps, preamp, speakers and all.. comes to your house and installs it! I had told him about the issues I was having with my C-4000, and he told me that he's always heard good things about Carver, so he had asked if he could borrow it. I said have at it. About three months later, he had brought it back and said, "that's one of the worst pieces of equipment I've ever heard". He echoed my sentiments exactly. He said, "there's no authority at all".

I'd really like to know what the big deal is about Carver equipment. If Carver is capable of producing the quality of sound I've been reading about all these years.. I'd really like to know how to do it.

 

[jazzmans]

TFM-15cb is not a digital amp, it's a traditional 100 wpc a/b amplifier, without the triac or any magnetic field.

The fact that you don't know this casts doubt on anything else you say about carver gear.

Feel free to send the c-4000 my way if you're just going to dumpster it. I'll get it reconditioned, and use it. I'll gladly pay shipping.

I personally find that the Carver PM-350 (and the Carver PM-1.5, and the Carver M-1.5t) to be vastly superior amplifiers to my now long gone Bryston 4b-st, although I have kept the Bryston Pre (mostly due to the balanced inputs and outputs) as well as besting the Rotel RB-1080 in every way when matched with either my Maggie 1.6 Qr's or my Infinity Crescendo 3009's or my Infinity Ren 90s.

I listen to everything from classical of all sorts(bach to beethovan to mozart to strauss to debussy) to rock, jazz, electronic, and even some of that hippity hop music.

YMMV, as always.

 

[jazzmans]

It's funny, I bought that 4b-ST as my 'ultimate' and final amplifier, replacing my then fifteen year old Carver M 1.5T with the expectation of it being 'better'. It took a few years of listening to realize that it really wasn't 'better' in any way to my ears, and generated far, far, too much heat especially at idle for me, and the day I put the M 1.5T back in service I had a total 'That's what's missing!' moment. Sold it for a loss, and never looked back.

I wish I'd sunk the money in a Sunfire Signature amp, as they were still being made and owned by Bob back then. One day.

 

[absolve2525]

I have a PM 350 also, which I rotate into the main system. It has plenty of solidity and impact, having compared it directly to other amps. I like the smaller M-0.5T model as well, which I believe has 140 watts per channel 8ohms, 200 watts 4ohms.

 

[techguy0192]

I've always had a lot of respect for Carver gear. If you want to get rid of your C-4000, please let me know, seriously.

I've had a few pairs of Vandersteen speakers and have had outstanding results with several Bryston amps - 2B-LP, 3BSST2, and the latest 2.5B3.

 

[Dr. Morbius]

Back in the day I used to have a Carver 900 receiver. It developed a slight hum so I bought an Onkyo AVR (can't remember the model number but forum member Cratz2 has it now) on clearance at Circuit City. The Onkyo outclassed the Carver in every way. I didn't realize how anemic the Carver sounded until I replaced it with the Onkyo.

 

[jazzmans]

I've never been impressed with the Carver integrated receivers, and the amps that were made after bobs oust (with the obvious exception of the mighty Lightstar) were a pale shadow of bobs gear.

I could tell you about the time I worked for (amongst other bands) Rage against the Machine, and all the subs and highs were driven with Clair Brothers (Carver) PM 2.0s and PM 1.5s. They certainly had weight and authority. I hear Clair Brothers just finally retired their carver amps, after over twenty years of constant use.

YMMV.

 

[Raynald]

First, it's good to be back at AK. I've been gone for quite sometime. "Life" sometimes gets in the way.

Anyway.. on to the subject at hand:

I have a Carver C-4000 preamp. I had removed it from the system some years ago simply because, for me, it didn't pass the sonics test. Very weak bass, very weak treble. I've read rave reviews on this unit, and it seems to hold it's value. I've had other Carver amps, preamps and receivers in the past.. they've all sounded the same.. weak and limp.

What I'd like to know is.. what am I doing wrong? I've connected it to different systems.. the result is the same.

I'm currently using a Parasound pre with a Bryston amp paired with Vandersteen speakers. This combination has that smooth, sweet sound I enjoy. The bass is smooth and rich, the mids flow like honey and highs are smooth yet crisp. Sounds like a good quality tube amp. In comparison, the Carver C-4000 sounds like a kids transistor radio. Not quite that bad.. but you get the idea...

Now, I realize certain equipment, for the best sound, needs to be "matched" electronically. For example: my Vandy's.. on any other amp / pre sounds absolutely awful. The "transistor radio" effect. However, with the Bryston.. they sing! I'm thinking the same thing with Carver.

I'm just about to toss the Carver out on it's ear.. (so to speak) as I'm cleaning out useless stuff. However, I thought I'd give it one last try. Your opinions please.

And BTW.. I'm not trolling or flaming, so please.. keeps the conversation civil.

Thanks

Don't feel bad, I used to sell Carver in the mid 80's to early 90's gear and I never liked the sound of it. Much preferred the Bryston in terms of pre-amps.

 

[Tomvette]

The Carver C4000 was an interesting preamp loaded with every possible sound altering features set. It included rear channel delay amps, sonic holography, which widened the sound stage beyond the speakers via out of phase left and right signals that fooled the ears, as well as dynamic range expanders, and pop and tick extraction (auto correlation), tone controls, phono stage with variable loading and lots of inputs. It was loaded with op amps and the polar opposite of Conrad Johnson and Audio Research. That said, it sounded better than many preamps of the day, except for low level hum, likely due to poor wiring layout. If your's is rolling off highs and lows it has problems.

 

[frecrowder]

Hey TRC your dead on on describing the Carver preamp sound. I know this personally. One day many moons ago I took my C4000 and M500 into a hi end shop. I had been bragging about the sound to the salesman. So we connected my system to a set of speakers and it sounded pretty good to me. Then he replaced with a Brston pre and a Robertson amp. Too say that I was astonished at the difference in sound was an understatement. It had such a fuller sound than mine starting in the bass al the way up. And imaged so much better. That day was what started my quest for higher end equipment. I soon sold my Carver and replaced with Counterpoint tube pre and Adcom 555 and it all sounded so much better. You are dead on on the sound.

 

[wallacefl]

I have had a Carver C-1 preamp and must admit it was not my cup of tea but have used both a Carver M1.5 and PM 1.5 to drive Martin Logan CLS and they were good sounding and had no issues driving the speaker. They were replaced with a Bryston 14bsst that is more transparent but there was no real difference in lower frequency output.

 

[JimL1]

If you guys want lower output would be advantageous to purchase a subwoofer or 2. Carvers were amazing but for audiophile sound I would also choose my Bryston 4B. Bob was a genius and sonic holography was very interesting but had its drawbacks in my opinion namely it colored the sound in an unexplainable way. I much prefer the sound of my Bryston 4 B coupled to my Audio Research LS 25 MKII

 

[SeattleTwist]

The 4000 Carver preamp sound fix is a total replacement of the capacitors. I did one when at the factory for a customer who raved at the result. It must have been 65 electrolytics.

 

[JimL1]

It's funny, I bought that 4b-ST as my 'ultimate' and final amplifier, replacing my then fifteen year old Carver M 1.5T with the expectation of it being 'better'. It took a few years of listening to realize that it really wasn't 'better' in any way to my ears, and generated far, far, too much heat especially at idle for me, and the day I put the M 1.5T back in service I had a total 'That's what's missing!' moment. Sold it for a loss, and never looked back.

I wish I'd sunk the money in a Sunfire Signature amp, as they were still being made and owned by Bob back then. One day.

I have owned a Bryston 4B for many years I don't think I would change it for anything. One of the few amplifier manufacturers who had the intelligence to add true clipping lights which saved many a tweeters I don't know why the rest did not follow suit. Very sweet sounding amplifier. I had one of those little Carver cube amps they are incredibly powerful but if you push them they will blow up as I blew mine and traded it off

 

[JimL1]

The 4000 Carver preamp sound fix is a total replacement of the capacitors. I did one when at the factory for a customer who raved at the result. It must have been 65 electrolytics.

I restored a C4000 a few years back and yes they have many capacitors and are not the easiest to work on. The entire unit must be disassembled to get the boards out. I have never found the Carver's particularly easy to work on but not as bad as Harman kardons

 

[TRC]

I restored a C4000 a few years back and yes they have many capacitors and are not the easiest to work on. The entire unit must be disassembled to get the boards out. I have never found the Carver's particularly easy to work on but not as bad as Harman kardons

So, do you think Carver just used cheap caps? I know he builds cheap so he can compete with "the big boys".. so maybe if I put in quality caps it would sound decent..?

 

[TRC]

The 4000 Carver preamp sound fix is a total replacement of the capacitors. I did one when at the factory for a customer who raved at the result. It must have been 65 electrolytics.

I wonder, Seattle, if it would even be worth fixing? It seems the entire unit was built cheap using cheap parts so he (Bob) could compete with "The Big Boys". The unit LOOKS impressive, but it's what's on the inside that counts. And even if I "beef up" the internals, when people who are in the know walk in and see this thing in my system, they're going to question my taste in audio. I'm NOT trying to put down Carver/PL or anyone who is a fan, but I mean, it is what it is.

 

[arpan]

Cambiati i condensatori, puliti i contatti ...cambiato potenziometro volume con un alps blu...cambiato trasformatore e sostituito con toroidale...puliti potenziometri alti e bassi...e relativi pulsanti....pulito slide posteriore apertura suono....signori miei il pre suona un incanto....bassi profondi e alti setosi.....pilota un krell ksa 250B..e Infinity 9 kappa.....con due casse posteriori di ritardo sono a un concerto live.....non vi perdete d'animo e sistematelo.