With a cap (of the right value) shunted across the tweeter, you are dumping energy to ground, similar to an attenuator with resistors.
CDX1-1412 VS DE-120
- Thread starter Daveintn
- Start date
Gigantic
A big, big love
when I worked in the motorcycle industry durning the previous decade I instructed at quite a few events at Carolina Motorsports Park, North Carolina Center for Automotive Research and Virginia International Raceway, which is close enough to NC that it's indistinguishable. Not much going on in those areas beyond the racetracks. That said, I have found Raleigh/Durham to be quite charming in the couple times I've visited and I would really like to visit the Asheville area for mountain biking.
mboxler
Well-Known Member
The shunt capacitor is acting as a low pass filter. As frequency rises, the parallel impedance of the capacitor/driver drops. Not only is the shunt capacitor offsetting the rising impedance of the driver, it can actually make the load on the high pass filter capacitive. Regardless, as the load on the high pass filter drops, the voltage across the load drops as well.
avguytx
Lunatic Member
It would sound better if the Caps were JEM
Only if it were all original Klipsch drivers.
Trujillo Mty
New Member
Necesito unos difisores para heresy i, quien imprime me pide los planos, los puedes compatir, porfavor
Gigantic
A big, big love
You might be able to get them from Crites, but I don’t know if they sell the horn lens separately
OK, I'll just pick up on this thread here since it's already established, as this topic has been at the heart of two system rebuilds I have going here.
The popular adoption of the DE120 did NOT go well here. Like akin to the Hindenburg. No amount of curation seemed to make those "sound good in the box" for me.....and the effort to do so was legion. World wars were won in less time. L-pads, ALK attenuators, ALK attenuators with better resistors, ALK attenuators with better resistors AND V-Cap ODAM 2uf caps across the driver for smooooooooth clear operation (as well as trying two other flavors for a month each). . @mboxler coached inductor experiments, @Deang built 4500 daughterboards. Nothing was gonna bring these things to heel.....or get them under any sort of "control".Dialogue - in a home theater no less - awful. Crawling the walls....especially with female spoken voice.
I spent three years attempting to get them to "blend in the box". No dice. All while thousands seem to enjoy thiers. And I invested in these for TWO different builds - five sets (one of them a spare), for a six Cornwall theater and a pair of Belle Klipsch. It became "the tweeter", not just here but in the community, what everyone was building around.
Dug over the web again and again to try to find the problem - or alternative. Ran into a pro guy who had a few sets of DE120 drivers with subbed diaphragms, who had experience with this driver before, and didn't sound right. Opens them up, they have different substituted diaphragms from a "coming out of covid" run. Convinced I had THOSE drivers, I get a set of new driver backs (thanks tndave) as well as a sample set of Celestion 1412s.......since these seemed to surface as an alternative, and thanks to TNDave I got to sample the 1412 when no one else had them in stock.
Except my drivers looked all proper inside, too. I opened them. All six I have pulled so far, all look the same and as they should. Further listening/testing does show some variance, but none "thought defective". The covid era ones ring worse, though but it's not by a wide margin.....
Now they sound good - really good - to a point. Real sexahh. But the problem is the "lack of discipline" - that "edge" that wants to barge in and take over EVERYTHING. It's craving to be a midrange driver, never seemingly happy just doing it's job, LOL. keeps pinging you in the head like a shooting gallery in a six Cornwall theater. It sounds like too that there's some sort of reflection from the back of the plastic cup. I liken it to a right fielder in baseball barging in to make the play when the center fielder has it under control . The more "athletic" right fielder wants to show off his deer-like skills to everyone. Think Billy Bean in Moneyball: "I pay you to get on first base, not to get caught stealing second."
I literally ordered daughterboard sets two and three for the theater (after sampling set one with DE120s) - and while it is definitely an improvement - I still couldn't get around how that driver sounded. But because of my faith in Dean, which was significantly higher than with the driver, I ordered them anyway.. I had started looking over stock and spec sheets, ready to order ANY high frequency compression driver that fell in that 106/107 area along with that "rising response in network" anomaly that the 4500d addresses. In addition to the CDX1-1412, there's also a CDX1-1742, a 4" ferrite compression driver that fits in Cornwall, so that ordered in here too.
*******************************************
After a week with the new DE120s, I auditioned the CDX1-1412 within the 4500d daughterboard environment, on a base set of B2 DeanG networks with RTX caps. Rolled the tweeters, everything else the same.
At the onset, I thought them a bit "reserved". A bit quiet. I guess that's why mboxler's above comments are a bit of a surprise to me, but I'll go on. I found the DE120 to be brash, these to be sorta laid back. But that stands to reason given how the DE120 "rings" in this room/systems, and anything a bit quieter would be welcome.
But when it's "showtime" - when the high air is required, the 1412 shows up. When it is SUPPOSED TO. A week of continued listening revealed that which I was looking for all along - a driver more focused on the higher frequencies and not as much the upper/high mids, and a driver that would BLEND in.
This is a classic case of how "the graphs look the same" - or similar enough -but don't "sound" the same.
It has some of that old K77 magic without the flaws/spitting at you all of the time, but with more of that modern "neodynium shine and smooth". Something with the polymide and magnet combo.....it's different, and rings really well "in the box".
Ever the curious, and since we are running a sort of speaker lab here (in two different rooms I might add) I found the aforementioned CDX1-1742, 4" driver, 1" exit, ONE db louder on the spec sheet. I figure these are both Celestion, so the ONE db diff was likely correct, at least somewhat consistent within thier own similar line. They fit in a Cornwall, so why not?
What a difference ONE db makes. Juuuuuuuuuuust a bit too much muscle, juuuuuuust bit too top heavy, juuuuuuust enough to stand out "just a smidge too much". Just a smidge. Seemed to exist between the DE120 and the 1412. More under control, just needed a db shaved off. Oh, and it is ferrite, so it presents itself a bit differently, again sort of reinforcing that I kinda like Neo. The neo is smoother/"shinier" while the ferrite is a bit.....darker. a bit "grovel-y". A sort of grain/snd at times that just made the 1412 sound cleaner in comparison, to a slight degree.
All of which brought me back around to the CDX1-1412, which to all testing to date, on all manner of sources and types within the theater, this driver "rings right" in the Cornwall box. Does it's job where it needs to, doesn't try to where it doesn't. The smallest driver of the batch......only about 3/4" at the back of the throat - and the smallest magnet - but it's juuuuuust right for this build.
Then. a tried another experiment, which was to put the CDX1-1412 on the Fastlane Dave tweeter horn, and squeezed another 1/2 db out of things. Or maybe it just disperses differently, but it puts off juuuuust a liiiiiitle extra. Blends even a bit better.
Only one issue out of all this, which is that the A55G on the K600 horn (midrange warble) becomes more noticeable when the "rest" is basically fixed. This is from the "too small hole exit" on the K600 which fails to let the totality of the midrange out, and has it ringing around inside the horn In speaker room/lab two, where the Belle Klipsch reside, and who also got DE120 treatment and had the same sort of issues, we decided to use an external Faital pro elliptical tractrix horn on the tweeter, so we could roll whatever driver in a 1" class we could find that would sound right in there. It wasn't hard, almost any of the above other two work just fine, along with a Faital 108R (best of the three but it should at the higher cost) and even got a Beyma CP25 set n here.. But in BOTH cases of "getting the tweeter reasonably right" within BOTH systems - one daughterboard, one not (Super X adjustable with ALK attenuator with 2uf option across the driver), that the stock mid horns now show up with that "warble" because the rest is basically right and the one outstanding flaw becomes easy to spot.
My wife, unprompted, pointed it out in sound tests. "What's that weird thing in the voices..." Sticks out when the rest is pretty on point. I am currently testing/beta-ing both the 501 (now) and 601 (in transit) from Fastlane Dave for "stock hole use" in Belle AND Cornwall respectively. In the 501 case, the warble is eliminated, and brings 85% improvement for 15% of the effort. Diffraction is still an issue but the essential flaws in horn and driver set are pretty much fixed and is an awesome little horn . The Belles will get a complete horn makeover (down to 400hz, the Elliptrac) and the Corns will get the 601s if they test like the 501s do.
But NONE of this would have been possible without solving the tweeter issue. I almost sold my 20+ year old Cornwall theater because of the crashes and failures. Just unlistenable. Made me regret taking them apart. I saved all the old stuff, but geez, this stuff's like Brody boarding ORCA...."were gonna need a bigger account through Parts Connection to pull this one off...."
So if the DE120 isn't doing it for you, the Celestion CDX1-1412 is a "different animal". And I do have to say that the delays have been beneficial (because I'm getting mid horn upgrades on all this stuff) - and I have learned a lot - but it sure was a painful way to find a tweeter. That said, anyone who has been around Klipsch knows that we have been seeking a K77 replacement ever since the release of the Ferrite version I suppose (LOL) but the DE120, for all of it's popularity, just didn't work here. So I consider the finding of a driver that DOES work for me to be a MONUMENTAL feat since like all other Klipschers have been seeking a better tweeter since 1982.....so it's a big deal.
"All that for a @$&% tweeter...."
Postscript:
Still not giving up the ghost on DE120, going to try that on Belle with external horn, and keep one set for trial on Belle for once midrange upgrades are complete, when another "tweeter sound off" will take place to pair with the new mids. I happen to think that they are just "too pro", that in the end best used in an outdoor or larger venue app. Not in my living room. Like it's almost "too dynamic". It "overrreaches". Even with all of the attenuation options. It's a good driver, I think it's best being 30/40 feet out though.m It's a "pro driver". With the good and bad that brings.
While I think it would be interesting to go back and redo some of those experiments with the Celestion (see how it is raw, etc) these comments are again, within the 4500d daughterboard environment. Given that there wasn't much other commentary, I figured that some sort of review/comment would assist - or at least inform to try other options of the initial attempts don't ring right for you.
The daughterboards do what they are supposed to do, I just prefer the Celestion. Little hint - if you have some "modern" network, like. DeanG or Crites A, AA, B, B2, etc the daughterboards really like the modern caps in the base network. Now if you are just buying this all from the start, you get the 4500x network in total (daughterboards being for those who bought a base typical network and realized the flaws in that approach, befoire all of these curations were devised).
Special thanks to DeanG, mboxler, and TNDave for all of the assistance, product, and expertise. It is because of these people that I stayed the course and didn't lose sight of the goal at hand. My faith in these people told me to keep going and don't give up on it. Out of all of this, the best decison I made here.
But there's a new kid in town and some of you might want to get to know him - the Celestion CDX1-1412. Worth the look and a good "alternative" if the DE120 doesn't work as well for you.....and it fits the 4500D/X environmemt very well.
"It's all about the blend".
The popular adoption of the DE120 did NOT go well here. Like akin to the Hindenburg. No amount of curation seemed to make those "sound good in the box" for me.....and the effort to do so was legion. World wars were won in less time. L-pads, ALK attenuators, ALK attenuators with better resistors, ALK attenuators with better resistors AND V-Cap ODAM 2uf caps across the driver for smooooooooth clear operation (as well as trying two other flavors for a month each). . @mboxler coached inductor experiments, @Deang built 4500 daughterboards. Nothing was gonna bring these things to heel.....or get them under any sort of "control".Dialogue - in a home theater no less - awful. Crawling the walls....especially with female spoken voice.
I spent three years attempting to get them to "blend in the box". No dice. All while thousands seem to enjoy thiers. And I invested in these for TWO different builds - five sets (one of them a spare), for a six Cornwall theater and a pair of Belle Klipsch. It became "the tweeter", not just here but in the community, what everyone was building around.
Dug over the web again and again to try to find the problem - or alternative. Ran into a pro guy who had a few sets of DE120 drivers with subbed diaphragms, who had experience with this driver before, and didn't sound right. Opens them up, they have different substituted diaphragms from a "coming out of covid" run. Convinced I had THOSE drivers, I get a set of new driver backs (thanks tndave) as well as a sample set of Celestion 1412s.......since these seemed to surface as an alternative, and thanks to TNDave I got to sample the 1412 when no one else had them in stock.
Except my drivers looked all proper inside, too. I opened them. All six I have pulled so far, all look the same and as they should. Further listening/testing does show some variance, but none "thought defective". The covid era ones ring worse, though but it's not by a wide margin.....
Now they sound good - really good - to a point. Real sexahh. But the problem is the "lack of discipline" - that "edge" that wants to barge in and take over EVERYTHING. It's craving to be a midrange driver, never seemingly happy just doing it's job, LOL. keeps pinging you in the head like a shooting gallery in a six Cornwall theater. It sounds like too that there's some sort of reflection from the back of the plastic cup. I liken it to a right fielder in baseball barging in to make the play when the center fielder has it under control . The more "athletic" right fielder wants to show off his deer-like skills to everyone. Think Billy Bean in Moneyball: "I pay you to get on first base, not to get caught stealing second."
I literally ordered daughterboard sets two and three for the theater (after sampling set one with DE120s) - and while it is definitely an improvement - I still couldn't get around how that driver sounded. But because of my faith in Dean, which was significantly higher than with the driver, I ordered them anyway.. I had started looking over stock and spec sheets, ready to order ANY high frequency compression driver that fell in that 106/107 area along with that "rising response in network" anomaly that the 4500d addresses. In addition to the CDX1-1412, there's also a CDX1-1742, a 4" ferrite compression driver that fits in Cornwall, so that ordered in here too.
*******************************************
After a week with the new DE120s, I auditioned the CDX1-1412 within the 4500d daughterboard environment, on a base set of B2 DeanG networks with RTX caps. Rolled the tweeters, everything else the same.
At the onset, I thought them a bit "reserved". A bit quiet. I guess that's why mboxler's above comments are a bit of a surprise to me, but I'll go on. I found the DE120 to be brash, these to be sorta laid back. But that stands to reason given how the DE120 "rings" in this room/systems, and anything a bit quieter would be welcome.
But when it's "showtime" - when the high air is required, the 1412 shows up. When it is SUPPOSED TO. A week of continued listening revealed that which I was looking for all along - a driver more focused on the higher frequencies and not as much the upper/high mids, and a driver that would BLEND in.
This is a classic case of how "the graphs look the same" - or similar enough -but don't "sound" the same.
It has some of that old K77 magic without the flaws/spitting at you all of the time, but with more of that modern "neodynium shine and smooth". Something with the polymide and magnet combo.....it's different, and rings really well "in the box".
Ever the curious, and since we are running a sort of speaker lab here (in two different rooms I might add) I found the aforementioned CDX1-1742, 4" driver, 1" exit, ONE db louder on the spec sheet. I figure these are both Celestion, so the ONE db diff was likely correct, at least somewhat consistent within thier own similar line. They fit in a Cornwall, so why not?
What a difference ONE db makes. Juuuuuuuuuuust a bit too much muscle, juuuuuuust bit too top heavy, juuuuuuust enough to stand out "just a smidge too much". Just a smidge. Seemed to exist between the DE120 and the 1412. More under control, just needed a db shaved off. Oh, and it is ferrite, so it presents itself a bit differently, again sort of reinforcing that I kinda like Neo. The neo is smoother/"shinier" while the ferrite is a bit.....darker. a bit "grovel-y". A sort of grain/snd at times that just made the 1412 sound cleaner in comparison, to a slight degree.
All of which brought me back around to the CDX1-1412, which to all testing to date, on all manner of sources and types within the theater, this driver "rings right" in the Cornwall box. Does it's job where it needs to, doesn't try to where it doesn't. The smallest driver of the batch......only about 3/4" at the back of the throat - and the smallest magnet - but it's juuuuuust right for this build.
Then. a tried another experiment, which was to put the CDX1-1412 on the Fastlane Dave tweeter horn, and squeezed another 1/2 db out of things. Or maybe it just disperses differently, but it puts off juuuuust a liiiiiitle extra. Blends even a bit better.
Only one issue out of all this, which is that the A55G on the K600 horn (midrange warble) becomes more noticeable when the "rest" is basically fixed. This is from the "too small hole exit" on the K600 which fails to let the totality of the midrange out, and has it ringing around inside the horn
In speaker room/lab two, where the Belle Klipsch reside, and who also got DE120 treatment and had the same sort of issues, we decided to use an external Faital pro elliptical tractrix horn on the tweeter, so we could roll whatever driver in a 1" class we could find that would sound right in there. It wasn't hard, almost any of the above other two work just fine, along with a Faital 108R (best of the three but it should at the higher cost) and even got a Beyma CP25 set n here.. But in BOTH cases of "getting the tweeter reasonably right" within BOTH systems - one daughterboard, one not (Super X adjustable with ALK attenuator with 2uf option across the driver), that the stock mid horns now show up with that "warble" because the rest is basically right and the one outstanding flaw becomes easy to spot.My wife, unprompted, pointed it out in sound tests. "What's that weird thing in the voices..." Sticks out when the rest is pretty on point. I am currently testing/beta-ing both the 501 (now) and 601 (in transit) from Fastlane Dave for "stock hole use" in Belle AND Cornwall respectively. In the 501 case, the warble is eliminated, and brings 85% improvement for 15% of the effort. Diffraction is still an issue but the essential flaws in horn and driver set are pretty much fixed and is an awesome little horn
. The Belles will get a complete horn makeover (down to 400hz, the Elliptrac) and the Corns will get the 601s if they test like the 501s do.But NONE of this would have been possible without solving the tweeter issue. I almost sold my 20+ year old Cornwall theater because of the crashes and failures. Just unlistenable. Made me regret taking them apart. I saved all the old stuff, but geez, this stuff's like Brody boarding ORCA...."were gonna need a bigger account through Parts Connection to pull this one off...."
So if the DE120 isn't doing it for you, the Celestion CDX1-1412 is a "different animal". And I do have to say that the delays have been beneficial (because I'm getting mid horn upgrades on all this stuff) - and I have learned a lot - but it sure was a painful way to find a tweeter. That said, anyone who has been around Klipsch knows that we have been seeking a K77 replacement ever since the release of the Ferrite version I suppose (LOL) but the DE120, for all of it's popularity, just didn't work here. So I consider the finding of a driver that DOES work for me to be a MONUMENTAL feat since like all other Klipschers have been seeking a better tweeter since 1982.....so it's a big deal.
"All that for a @$&% tweeter...."
Postscript:
Still not giving up the ghost on DE120, going to try that on Belle with external horn, and keep one set for trial on Belle for once midrange upgrades are complete, when another "tweeter sound off" will take place to pair with the new mids. I happen to think that they are just "too pro", that in the end best used in an outdoor or larger venue app. Not in my living room. Like it's almost "too dynamic". It "overrreaches". Even with all of the attenuation options. It's a good driver, I think it's best being 30/40 feet out though.m It's a "pro driver". With the good and bad that brings.
While I think it would be interesting to go back and redo some of those experiments with the Celestion (see how it is raw, etc) these comments are again, within the 4500d daughterboard environment. Given that there wasn't much other commentary, I figured that some sort of review/comment would assist - or at least inform to try other options of the initial attempts don't ring right for you.
The daughterboards do what they are supposed to do, I just prefer the Celestion. Little hint - if you have some "modern" network, like. DeanG or Crites A, AA, B, B2, etc the daughterboards really like the modern caps in the base network. Now if you are just buying this all from the start, you get the 4500x network in total (daughterboards being for those who bought a base typical network and realized the flaws in that approach, befoire all of these curations were devised).
Special thanks to DeanG, mboxler, and TNDave for all of the assistance, product, and expertise. It is because of these people that I stayed the course and didn't lose sight of the goal at hand. My faith in these people told me to keep going and don't give up on it. Out of all of this, the best decison I made here.
But there's a new kid in town and some of you might want to get to know him - the Celestion CDX1-1412. Worth the look and a good "alternative" if the DE120 doesn't work as well for you.....and it fits the 4500D/X environmemt very well.
"It's all about the blend".
Dare I say........dome-ish.
Yummmmmmmm.........
Yummmmmmmm.........
You know it. There's no accounting for taste, system tuning combos/synergy, the way people listen, room environments. And it was a learning experience doing all the trials, and the digging and the research. As much as I asked questions and ended up the higher maintenance case, I genuinely tried not to be and to solve my "own problem" using generally accepted attenuation principles I kept channeling my inner Columbo and asking our resident experts, while all the while knowing they probably would rather this be solved already as much as I did, LOL and my trying to leave a "lesser footprint".
As success appears a discernable and perceptible thing it's easier to appreciate "paying dues/trial by fire", and hey, I got some really good sounding audio tools and accessories to show for it....and we found "the solution". ALL worth it, while greatly appreciating those who tolerated and helped me through the process. I don't WANT to be the 10%.......
.....but I will say too that the DE120 does lure you in, make you think it's a fun ride, and it wouldn't have kept me trying for so long without that. It has that sexehh side. A great date but not a long term relationship. Or something like a Vonte Burfict. Too many penalties, LOL. But they still made room for him on the roster, cuz he could light people UP. Makes you wanna keep trying to put him in there, hoping the good outplays the part that irritates people.
So even in not liking it enough for long term use, I do get why people do. I did like it, in a lot of ways. I think I just need a bigger house with bigger rooms
I kept channeling my inner Columbo and asking our resident experts, while all the while knowing they probably would rather this be solved already as much as I did, LOL and my trying to leave a "lesser footprint".As success appears a discernable and perceptible thing it's easier to appreciate "paying dues/trial by fire", and hey, I got some really good sounding audio tools and accessories to show for it....and we found "the solution". ALL worth it, while greatly appreciating those who tolerated and helped me through the process. I don't WANT to be the 10%.......
.....but I will say too that the DE120 does lure you in, make you think it's a fun ride, and it wouldn't have kept me trying for so long without that. It has that sexehh side. A great date but not a long term relationship. Or something like a Vonte Burfict. Too many penalties, LOL. But they still made room for him on the roster, cuz he could light people UP. Makes you wanna keep trying to put him in there, hoping the good outplays the part that irritates people.
So even in not liking it enough for long term use, I do get why people do. I did like it, in a lot of ways. I think I just need a bigger house with bigger rooms
None of this makes any sense if the drivers aren’t defective or aren’t loaded with the wrong diaphragms. I used the de-120 in my La Scalas for many years and never noticed anything except faithful reproduction. The only caveat here is that I had stopped listening at live levels. You should send a pair back to B&C for examination/testing.
He also has a current production driver and I have handled hundreds since when he bought the first ones in question with no complaints. The ones I have used in my personal speaker rebuilds were all OK. At this point in time I am leaning towards the 10% idea and the DE-120's will never make him happy. If I am reading right the CDX1's work and they are exactly what I would use with his reported experience.
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Agree with Dave, just think now that I'm a 10%er, although I do have a set out of this batch that's 2019 production that I'll probably hold on to as I want to play with that on some other horns and setups down the line. When Belles go 2" there will probably be another round of auditions....
I really did pretty much try everything though.....and the odd part is rolling in these other tweeters without so many issues. Not all the others were perfect, some did have their slight things they do that make some more a match than others, not it's not like all the other compression tweeters met my dislike, although I liked some more than others. DE120 seems an outlier - for me. And even then, I get the attraction, I really do.....
I did stay up listening to my Cornwalls until 1:30 last night, clearly out of "test mode" mindset and just enjoying the proceedings with the now back in 1412s. So in the end - and my primary reason for posting - is to say "hey, if you are a 10%er too, or just wanna try an alternative - there is one. and in a Cornwall, maybe a few more.
I really did pretty much try everything though.....and the odd part is rolling in these other tweeters without so many issues. Not all the others were perfect, some did have their slight things they do that make some more a match than others, not it's not like all the other compression tweeters met my dislike, although I liked some more than others. DE120 seems an outlier - for me. And even then, I get the attraction, I really do.....
I did stay up listening to my Cornwalls until 1:30 last night, clearly out of "test mode" mindset and just enjoying the proceedings with the now back in 1412s. So in the end - and my primary reason for posting - is to say "hey, if you are a 10%er too, or just wanna try an alternative - there is one. and in a Cornwall, maybe a few more.
Running into another facet of the CDX1-1412 in that it's synergy with the K55-V (when properly corrected) is fantastic. Something about the polymide/neo combo has this "alnico" feel, and it locks in with the K-55V remarkably well. I really liked the A-55G/DE120 combo in a lot of respects, despite that tweeter's close range indiscipline, but I never liked DE120/K-55V at all. It's why I bought A-55Gs because I thought that combo did a lot better initially and the DE120 didn't seem a good match to the K-55V (was chasing the better tweeter in that case as opposed to specifically looking for "the better midrange").
But the CDX1-1412 really gets along well with the K-55V and I think that fact needs to be known, in the interest of more choice and bringing more good results for more people.
But the CDX1-1412 really gets along well with the K-55V and I think that fact needs to be known, in the interest of more choice and bringing more good results for more people.
I have looked at the DE-120's Audible sent me yesterday. The ones that were bad had loose diaphragms and the voice coil looked cosmetically different.
There is a line of green material on the good voice coil as you will see below. In the mean time note there are arc marks on this voice coil and no green lines. B&C is not going to look at something 5 years old so I won't have an opinion from them on this. I checked torque on diaphragm screws on the good one Audible sent back and from stock I have on hand and they were all quite tight. The problem child was barely on there and what I will never know is did they come from the factory that way or did someone open it up to see what was in there.
Now on the second one where the cap was very snug we see there are green lines and since they have not been in service no arcs. I also had a look at one run a fair amount of time and there were the green lines and once again no arcs. There are some odd things going on here and I have no idea exactly what happened so all I can do is report on what I see. Out of probably 600 pieces or so I have gone through I have observed only one manufacturing error where the mounting holes were not tapped. Other then that I have not had reported problems from others nor have I had any personally with the sets I have stuck them into.
There is a line of green material on the good voice coil as you will see below. In the mean time note there are arc marks on this voice coil and no green lines. B&C is not going to look at something 5 years old so I won't have an opinion from them on this. I checked torque on diaphragm screws on the good one Audible sent back and from stock I have on hand and they were all quite tight. The problem child was barely on there and what I will never know is did they come from the factory that way or did someone open it up to see what was in there.
Now on the second one where the cap was very snug we see there are green lines and since they have not been in service no arcs. I also had a look at one run a fair amount of time and there were the green lines and once again no arcs. There are some odd things going on here and I have no idea exactly what happened so all I can do is report on what I see. Out of probably 600 pieces or so I have gone through I have observed only one manufacturing error where the mounting holes were not tapped. Other then that I have not had reported problems from others nor have I had any personally with the sets I have stuck them into.
No worries on the five years old thing. At the outset I knew we were too far down the rabbit hole so that's quite OK.
On the diaphragm numbers I didn't know those were anything other than production numbers...or that they were supposed to be the same.
I DID open these up to have a look see, (four screws on the back) - they were NOT "run loose" (at least from the outside four screw back perspective) as I did in fact check the screws at some earlier point in the proceedings, but apparently I didn't screw the backs thoroughly on the repack? I definitely checked those during all the extra "eyeballing/troubleshooting" to make sure....."snug not too tight/throttled" was the approach.
My untrained eye assumed those were the same, the "tipoff" I was given by the DIY enthusiast on the handful of apparent "subbed diaphragms" gave a different description than even these, where the "white" around the outside of the copper ring appeared different, like the diaphragm was suspended instead of having a surround.
I fully expected to get an answer what these were normal, apparently those slight differences matter? I DO appreciate the report, as those slight differences might account for some of the stuff going on?
On the diaphragm numbers I didn't know those were anything other than production numbers...or that they were supposed to be the same.
I DID open these up to have a look see, (four screws on the back) - they were NOT "run loose" (at least from the outside four screw back perspective) as I did in fact check the screws at some earlier point in the proceedings, but apparently I didn't screw the backs thoroughly on the repack? I definitely checked those during all the extra "eyeballing/troubleshooting" to make sure....."snug not too tight/throttled" was the approach.
My untrained eye assumed those were the same, the "tipoff" I was given by the DIY enthusiast on the handful of apparent "subbed diaphragms" gave a different description than even these, where the "white" around the outside of the copper ring appeared different, like the diaphragm was suspended instead of having a surround.
I fully expected to get an answer what these were normal, apparently those slight differences matter? I DO appreciate the report, as those slight differences might account for some of the stuff going on?
I know I did not.