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CDX1-1412 VS DE-120

winglet said:
I guess some type of lot number makes more sense.

First two probably the year.
2020 vs 2025
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Wouldn't be 2025, these were covid era serials (discernable from looking at serials on the magnets). Drivers were handled one pair at a time, one driver at a time within that examination, such that when I looked inside the backs that nothing would get swapped.
 
Audible Nectar said:
Wouldn't be 2025, these were covid era serials (discernable from looking at serials on the magnets). Drivers were handled one pair at a time, one driver at a time within that examination, such that when I looked inside the backs that nothing would get swapped.
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Gotcha. Dave said the “25” one was not run. Just assumed it was from his new stock, and not yours
 
Audible Nectar said:
OK, I'll just pick up on this thread here since it's already established, as this topic has been at the heart of two system rebuilds I have going here.

The popular adoption of the DE120 did NOT go well here. Like akin to the Hindenburg. No amount of curation seemed to make those "sound good in the box" for me.....and the effort to do so was legion. World wars were won in less time. L-pads, ALK attenuators, ALK attenuators with better resistors, ALK attenuators with better resistors AND V-Cap ODAM 2uf caps across the driver for smooooooooth clear operation (as well as trying two other flavors for a month each). . @mboxler coached inductor experiments, @Deang built 4500 daughterboards. Nothing was gonna bring these things to heel.....or get them under any sort of "control".Dialogue - in a home theater no less - awful. Crawling the walls....especially with female spoken voice.

I spent three years attempting to get them to "blend in the box". No dice. All while thousands seem to enjoy thiers. And I invested in these for TWO different builds - five sets (one of them a spare), for a six Cornwall theater and a pair of Belle Klipsch. It became "the tweeter", not just here but in the community, what everyone was building around.

Dug over the web again and again to try to find the problem - or alternative. Ran into a pro guy who had a few sets of DE120 drivers with subbed diaphragms, who had experience with this driver before, and didn't sound right. Opens them up, they have different substituted diaphragms from a "coming out of covid" run. Convinced I had THOSE drivers, I get a set of new driver backs (thanks tndave) as well as a sample set of Celestion 1412s.......since these seemed to surface as an alternative, and thanks to TNDave I got to sample the 1412 when no one else had them in stock.

Except my drivers looked all proper inside, too. I opened them. All six I have pulled so far, all look the same and as they should. Further listening/testing does show some variance, but none "thought defective". The covid era ones ring worse, though but it's not by a wide margin.....

Now they sound good - really good - to a point. Real sexahh. But the problem is the "lack of discipline" - that "edge" that wants to barge in and take over EVERYTHING. It's craving to be a midrange driver, never seemingly happy just doing it's job, LOL. keeps pinging you in the head like a shooting gallery in a six Cornwall theater. It sounds like too that there's some sort of reflection from the back of the plastic cup. I liken it to a right fielder in baseball barging in to make the play when the center fielder has it under control . The more "athletic" right fielder wants to show off his deer-like skills to everyone. Think Billy Bean in Moneyball: "I pay you to get on first base, not to get caught stealing second."

I literally ordered daughterboard sets two and three for the theater (after sampling set one with DE120s) - and while it is definitely an improvement - I still couldn't get around how that driver sounded. But because of my faith in Dean, which was significantly higher than with the driver, I ordered them anyway.. I had started looking over stock and spec sheets, ready to order ANY high frequency compression driver that fell in that 106/107 area along with that "rising response in network" anomaly that the 4500d addresses. In addition to the CDX1-1412, there's also a CDX1-1742, a 4" ferrite compression driver that fits in Cornwall, so that ordered in here too.

*******************************************

After a week with the new DE120s, I auditioned the CDX1-1412 within the 4500d daughterboard environment, on a base set of B2 DeanG networks with RTX caps. Rolled the tweeters, everything else the same.

At the onset, I thought them a bit "reserved". A bit quiet. I guess that's why mboxler's above comments are a bit of a surprise to me, but I'll go on. I found the DE120 to be brash, these to be sorta laid back. But that stands to reason given how the DE120 "rings" in this room/systems, and anything a bit quieter would be welcome.

But when it's "showtime" - when the high air is required, the 1412 shows up. When it is SUPPOSED TO. A week of continued listening revealed that which I was looking for all along - a driver more focused on the higher frequencies and not as much the upper/high mids, and a driver that would BLEND in.

This is a classic case of how "the graphs look the same" - or similar enough -but don't "sound" the same.

It has some of that old K77 magic without the flaws/spitting at you all of the time, but with more of that modern "neodynium shine and smooth". Something with the polymide and magnet combo.....it's different, and rings really well "in the box".

Ever the curious, and since we are running a sort of speaker lab here (in two different rooms I might add) I found the aforementioned CDX1-1742, 4" driver, 1" exit, ONE db louder on the spec sheet. I figure these are both Celestion, so the ONE db diff was likely correct, at least somewhat consistent within thier own similar line. They fit in a Cornwall, so why not?

What a difference ONE db makes. Juuuuuuuuuuust a bit too much muscle, juuuuuuust bit too top heavy, juuuuuuust enough to stand out "just a smidge too much". Just a smidge. Seemed to exist between the DE120 and the 1412. More under control, just needed a db shaved off. Oh, and it is ferrite, so it presents itself a bit differently, again sort of reinforcing that I kinda like Neo. The neo is smoother/"shinier" while the ferrite is a bit.....darker. a bit "grovel-y". A sort of grain/snd at times that just made the 1412 sound cleaner in comparison, to a slight degree.

All of which brought me back around to the CDX1-1412, which to all testing to date, on all manner of sources and types within the theater, this driver "rings right" in the Cornwall box. Does it's job where it needs to, doesn't try to where it doesn't. The smallest driver of the batch......only about 3/4" at the back of the throat - and the smallest magnet - but it's juuuuuust right for this build.

Then. a tried another experiment, which was to put the CDX1-1412 on the Fastlane Dave tweeter horn, and squeezed another 1/2 db out of things. Or maybe it just disperses differently, but it puts off juuuuust a liiiiiitle extra. Blends even a bit better.

Only one issue out of all this, which is that the A55G on the K600 horn (midrange warble) becomes more noticeable when the "rest" is basically fixed. This is from the "too small hole exit" on the K600 which fails to let the totality of the midrange out, and has it ringing around inside the horn :) In speaker room/lab two, where the Belle Klipsch reside, and who also got DE120 treatment and had the same sort of issues, we decided to use an external Faital pro elliptical tractrix horn on the tweeter, so we could roll whatever driver in a 1" class we could find that would sound right in there. It wasn't hard, almost any of the above other two work just fine, along with a Faital 108R (best of the three but it should at the higher cost) and even got a Beyma CP25 set n here.. But in BOTH cases of "getting the tweeter reasonably right" within BOTH systems - one daughterboard, one not (Super X adjustable with ALK attenuator with 2uf option across the driver), that the stock mid horns now show up with that "warble" because the rest is basically right and the one outstanding flaw becomes easy to spot.

My wife, unprompted, pointed it out in sound tests. "What's that weird thing in the voices..." Sticks out when the rest is pretty on point. I am currently testing/beta-ing both the 501 (now) and 601 (in transit) from Fastlane Dave for "stock hole use" in Belle AND Cornwall respectively. In the 501 case, the warble is eliminated, and brings 85% improvement for 15% of the effort. Diffraction is still an issue but the essential flaws in horn and driver set are pretty much fixed and is an awesome little horn :) . The Belles will get a complete horn makeover (down to 400hz, the Elliptrac) and the Corns will get the 601s if they test like the 501s do.

But NONE of this would have been possible without solving the tweeter issue. I almost sold my 20+ year old Cornwall theater because of the crashes and failures. Just unlistenable. Made me regret taking them apart. I saved all the old stuff, but geez, this stuff's like Brody boarding ORCA...."were gonna need a bigger account through Parts Connection to pull this one off...."

So if the DE120 isn't doing it for you, the Celestion CDX1-1412 is a "different animal". And I do have to say that the delays have been beneficial (because I'm getting mid horn upgrades on all this stuff) - and I have learned a lot - but it sure was a painful way to find a tweeter. That said, anyone who has been around Klipsch knows that we have been seeking a K77 replacement ever since the release of the Ferrite version I suppose (LOL) but the DE120, for all of it's popularity, just didn't work here. So I consider the finding of a driver that DOES work for me to be a MONUMENTAL feat since like all other Klipschers have been seeking a better tweeter since 1982.....so it's a big deal.

"All that for a @$&% tweeter...."

Postscript:

Still not giving up the ghost on DE120, going to try that on Belle with external horn, and keep one set for trial on Belle for once midrange upgrades are complete, when another "tweeter sound off" will take place to pair with the new mids. I happen to think that they are just "too pro", that in the end best used in an outdoor or larger venue app. Not in my living room. Like it's almost "too dynamic". It "overrreaches". Even with all of the attenuation options. It's a good driver, I think it's best being 30/40 feet out though.m It's a "pro driver". With the good and bad that brings.

While I think it would be interesting to go back and redo some of those experiments with the Celestion (see how it is raw, etc) these comments are again, within the 4500d daughterboard environment. Given that there wasn't much other commentary, I figured that some sort of review/comment would assist - or at least inform to try other options of the initial attempts don't ring right for you.

The daughterboards do what they are supposed to do, I just prefer the Celestion. Little hint - if you have some "modern" network, like. DeanG or Crites A, AA, B, B2, etc the daughterboards really like the modern caps in the base network. Now if you are just buying this all from the start, you get the 4500x network in total (daughterboards being for those who bought a base typical network and realized the flaws in that approach, befoire all of these curations were devised).

Special thanks to DeanG, mboxler, and TNDave for all of the assistance, product, and expertise. It is because of these people that I stayed the course and didn't lose sight of the goal at hand. My faith in these people told me to keep going and don't give up on it. Out of all of this, the best decison I made here.

But there's a new kid in town and some of you might want to get to know him - the Celestion CDX1-1412. Worth the look and a good "alternative" if the DE120 doesn't work as well for you.....and it fits the 4500D/X environmemt very well.

"It's all about the blend".
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Where do the Beyma CP-25 fit in your tweeter comparison?
 
I have to say that I didn't give it the time it probably deserved in the Belle system (Faital 108Rs came in and being a level up sort of draws one's attention) but it did just fine without being real "review-y"...just trying to find "anything else" that would ring different in here. Think I liked it more than the polymide/ferrite combo of the CDX1-1742, the Faital is in another class. Point of fact I had serviceable success with about everything I tried aside from DE120....Celestion DCX1-1742, the Beyma, and the Faital, I just ended up fixating on the Faital as it is a rather refined driver from a pro lineage but designed for indoor use (higher tolerance diaphragm and install method). When the 2" gets settled in I'm going to reevalute three (DE120, Beyma, Faital) and if I end up with a 6khz crossover in any scenario will also try a Fostex. I can play with these on Faital STH102 horns also such to get "all things equal". I have plans to evaluate DE120 in these other horns too, as I haven't closed the book on that driver entirely but will be "later".

I've also heard the Beymas in two other systems and had zero complaints. that driver didn't do much of anything to call negative attention to it in systems I heard, it complemented the systems it resided in well (Volti upgrade as well as pieced together with a Volti horn with attached BMS). For external use outside the cabinet seemed a known known and a reference "go to" unitl the DE120 got all the buzz. I had that prior listening reference so the attitude was a bit "Wily E. Coyote" with the TNT stack going "THIS oughtta do it" when it came to these other drivers, throw a bunch of stuff against the wall and see if it sticks and matches - some known and some not.

Took a while to run into a set., people must like 'em......

I'd probably put Beyma at #2 behind the Faital but the Faital should win at twice the price. I'm guessing the Beymas would be it if the Faitals were not here for the current listening in Belle.
 
Another thumbs up for the CELESTION CDX1-1412’s in my Klipschorn’s, working superbly with the K-55-V mids. I did find the CT-125’s did a credible job, better than the CT-120’s……. A good test I’ve found recently is the song “Flight of the Cosmic Hippo” by Bela Fleck - covers the really highs and super lows.
 
Dr Morbius said:
Another thumbs up for the CELESTION CDX1-1412’s in my Klipschorn’s, working superbly with the K-55-V mids. I did find the CT-125’s did a credible job, better than the CT-120’s……. A good test I’ve found recently is the song “Flight of the Cosmic Hippo” by Bela Fleck - covers the really highs and super lows.
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What crossover are you using is it plug and play with for example AA crossovers?
 
The DE-120 tops out at 18kHz and the CDX at 20kHz. To date I have sold a fair number of CDX drivers now but have no real feedback from those who have owned both as to why they prefer one over the other. I do know there have been no complaints on either except for the one in this thread.
 
I really liked the Crites CT125 over the CT120, but I believe they stopped making the CT125’s for some reason? I already have a pair of CT125’s but already mounted the CELESTION CDX1-1412’s and wished I used the CT125’s instead!
 
Dr Morbius said:
The CT125 connects right up to the AA crossovers, I had to increase output on my tweeter circuit to hear the Celestion.
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I seem to remember it differently, so I ran a quick test. CT-125 is white, CDX14-1412 is red.

The CT-125 starts hot but has a downward sloping response. By the time it reaches 18.5khz it's down 13dB compared to the CDX14-1412.
I don't have an AA to test in network.

Tweeter Shootout 2.jpg
 
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