Confused about wattage...

[mrkmpn]

Ok, so... I have a pair of Avid 102 speakers that say, on the front of the speaker box, min watts 15, max watts 100. I just got a Scott 370R amp recently that says it has 60 watts min. RMS.

Now, from what I originally read, this amp should power my speakers better than my old amp, a Sansui 221 with 12 watts min. RMS. I turn my amp up to a max of a notch or two over half volume.

Today a friend of mine came over and seemed to think I needed to be careful with this amp, like I might damage my speakers. He is also an audiophile type person, and collects vintage gear, but I honestly don't know what his level of knowledge is in this.

I've tried looking into this, but most threads I've seen seem to get wrapped up in semantics about wattage, with many people saying there's really no such thing as RMS watts.

To me it seems my "new" amp would be just about in the middle of what the speakers can handle, am I wrong?

 

[whoaru99]

Even though your amp is in the middle, it's still possible you could damage your speakers with carelessness. The bigger issue than the rating of your amp is the rating of the speakers. It's usually quite nebulous as to what they actually mean.

Unless you're going to party like a rock star where long term power handling comes into play, being concern with some sort of match between speaker rating and amp power isn't that big of a deal.

A very simple rule of thumb is if you notice a change in the character of the sound as you go higher in volume, just down a bit from that point is probably about the maximum for that combination.

 

[E.Man]

the numbers as you present them look OK to me but numbers aren't everything and without being onsite we can't be any more definite.

^^ as above, don't crank it further if it sounds bad.

 

[Kingshead]

If the amplifier has a volume knob that rotates from approximately 7:00 to 5:00 say, then a good rule of thumb is 2:00 as maximum leaves adequate headroom for the amplifier not to clip. With the power stated and the speaker's range I see this as working fine with the tone controls set to flat and the loudness off. If at any time you here the woofer begin to bottom out then of course turn it down, it should be obvious if something in the system is being over driven.

 

[whoaru99]

I agree and disagree on the obvious part.

Agree inasmuch as if it's obvious, yes, something is being overdriven. However, disagree inasmuch as by the time you hear it clear and obvious you've likely already been beyond the clean point for a good bit.

 

[Kingshead]

I agree and disagree on the obvious part.

Agree inasmuch as if it's obvious, yes, something is being overdriven. However, disagree inasmuch as by the time you hear it clear and obvious you've likely already been beyond the clean point for a good bit.

You are absolutely right.

 

[Lavane]

A 15 wpc amp can destroy a 100wpc speaker as well. If you drive any amp into clipping it can ruin the speaker. I have higher wattage amps connected to lower wattage speakers, I just don't overdrive them. If you don't drive the speakers into distortion you will be OK.

 

[mrkmpn]

Even though your amp is in the middle, it's still possible you could damage your speakers with carelessness. The bigger issue than the rating of your amp is the rating of the speakers. It's usually quite nebulous as to what they actually mean.

Unless you're going to party like a rock star where long term power handling comes into play, being concern with some sort of match between speaker rating and amp power isn't that big of a deal.

A very simple rule of thumb is if you notice a change in the character of the sound as you go higher in volume, just down a bit from that point is probably about the maximum for that combination.

That's why I was asking... I thought it was strange (I'm a newb to all this though) that rather than just give a maximum rating, the speakers give quite a large range of watts. I know that all manufacturers do it differently, so it's tough to compare, but having that range makes it even more confusing.

The volume knob is labeled from 0 to 40, right now I'm listening to it at about 17. I'd say the highest I've probably ever had it is about 22 or so, never even up to 25 or higher. I don't notice any distortion present or anything...

I guess what I really want to know is how do I know what amp is good for what speakers based on the wattage rating of each? Which would be more appropriate for these speakers, the 12 watt Sansui, or the 60 watt Scott amp?

I'm coming from decades of listening to CDs to going back to listening to Vinyl. I'm 41 and last had a turntable when I was 16, so I'm unsure how much of what doesn't sound right is due to my speakers, amp, stylus/turntable, or the fact that vinyl just doesn't have the dynamic range of digital audio.

What makes it more frustrating is that some albums sound great while others don;t seem right, and some times on the same album, some songs sound great while others seem to be missing something frequency wise... even when the record sounds perfect as far as no hissing, pops, or crackles. .

 

[mrkmpn]

I agree and disagree on the obvious part.

Agree inasmuch as if it's obvious, yes, something is being overdriven. However, disagree inasmuch as by the time you hear it clear and obvious you've likely already been beyond the clean point for a good bit.

I don't understand what you're saying. What do you mean it's obvious something is being over driven?

 

[Kingshead]

I don't understand what you're saying. What do you mean it's obvious something is being over driven?

He was quoting my post. Obvious meaning you will here some sort of distortion, or straining once the volume has exceeded it's safe limit. You may notice some frequencies cease to increase in output as the volume knob approaches it's max, or it could even result in the woofer bottoming out.

 

[whoaru99]

I guess what I really want to know is how do I know what amp is good for what speakers based on the wattage rating of each? Which would be more appropriate for these speakers, the 12 watt Sansui, or the 60 watt Scott amp?

Neither, either, both. I'm not trying to make it hard, I'm trying to reinforce the point that it's not that big of a deal.

If the 12W Sansui makes enough sound for your listening level without distorting to do so, then it's appropriate.

At the end of the day it's what you do with it more than the amplifier power and the speaker rating. This is where the audible clues come in that I mentioned earlier.

In one of my systems I use amps rated 700wpc on speakers rated 210W.

In another system I'm currently using an amp rated about 25wpc with speakers having recommended amplifier power 100 - 500W.

They both work just fine within the lesser of the limiting factors.

Another thing is that volume control position is generally not an accurate indicator of power output. In other words, just because a volume control goes from 0 to 10, you cannot assume that a setting of 5 is half power. It's likely closer to full power than half power.

 

[E.Man]

Your expanding into a couple of different areas here.

To start with IMO on paper I'd go with the Scott amp. But that's from here right !

Since you're not used to the vauguries of vinyl go back to digital where you're comfortable and listen to the 2 amps.

Now as far as some vinyl albums sounding good and others not and then some individual tracks sounding better than others, that's often the case with records. Back when you were 16 I doubt you were doing much critical listening.

 

[mrkmpn]

He was quoting my post. Obvious meaning you will here some sort of distortion, or straining once the volume has exceeded it's safe limit. It could even result in the woofer bottoming out.

Ok, I re-read the post he was responding to. I do have the tone controls (bass, mid, treble) all the way up as everything sounded "thin" if I didn't. Loudness is off. I have it at almost 1/2 volume and I don't notice any distortion and a little over half is the highest I've ever had it... I live in a small house, it doesn't take much.

But let me as this again... "Which would be more appropriate for these speakers, the 12 watt Sansui, or the 60 watt Scott amp?"

 

[mrkmpn]

Back when you were 16 I doubt you were doing much critical listening.

You are exactly right there.

 

[Kingshead]

Well, with the tone controls turned up all the way both amps have the ability to damage most any speaker. Try adjusting the tone controls just a bit over flat and listen for a while and give yourself some time to acclimate. And as others have said, which ever amplifier sounds the best is the better one for the speakers connected at the time.

 

[uplander]

But let me as this again... "Which would be more appropriate for these speakers, the 12 watt Sansui, or the 60 watt Scott amp?"

Either one. It depends. How's that for vague?

Neither amp will damage the speakers due to giving them too much clean power. Either amp can damage the speakers if the amps are driven to excessive levels of distortion. If you tend to listen at a louder volume, I'd run the Scott.

If you never stress the Sansui, then just use whichever you like the most.

 

[twiiii]

Speakers have ratings as do amps. You amp will put out 60 watts on a good day with less than !% distortion from about 30 to 16,000 Hz as I remember which is more than adequate. Most of the time with average speakers you will be listening at 1 watt. Now if you like to listen at 10 watts because your speakers are a little below average sensitivity and you prefer louder sounds you are in trouble. Because with an average listening level of 10 watts peaks can easily exceed 100 watts, and your amp is going to create all sorts of nasty little to blaring sounds of distortion. Distortion not only sounds bad but it generates at lot of power in the higher frequencies which are irritating to the ear and can cause the HF driver to over heat and destroy its self either in stages, be they small or increasing larger amounts till it fails totally. $$$$$$$$ Your only solution is to upgrade your speakers with more efficient ones. Remember what Paul Klipsch said way back when. All the world needs is a great 10 watt amp.. So find your self a pair of Klipschorns, Cornwalls, Ev Patricians, JBL Paragons, Altec Carmels, etc and that 60 watt amp will blow you ought of the house with below 10 watts and you will be ever happy. More or Less.

Remember you have to choose between quantity and quality. The first can be had with effort, the latter will cost you a lot of home work, research, auditioning, learning, training yourself and if your lucky only a small fortune.

 

[HyKlas]

Of course this thread has delved in to the semantics world the OP was speaking of. It's a given though, nature of the beast. There is no possible way to say which is better for the job in any form of simple answer. Only one thing is for certain here. Being that your tone controls are cranked up, it's obvious you dislike the sound of your speakers. Try something else... Possibly something with a 12" woofer in a ported box.

 

[Bratwurst7s]

Ok, so... I have a pair of Avid 102 speakers that say, on the front of the speaker box, min watts 15, max watts 100. I just got a Scott 370R amp recently that says it has 60 watts min. RMS.

Now, from what I originally read, this amp should power my speakers better than my old amp, a Sansui 221 with 12 watts min. RMS. I turn my amp up to a max of a notch or two over half volume.

Today a friend of mine came over and seemed to think I needed to be careful with this amp, like I might damage my speakers. He is also an audiophile type person, and collects vintage gear, but I honestly don't know what his level of knowledge is in this.

I've tried looking into this, but most threads I've seen seem to get wrapped up in semantics about wattage, with many people saying there's really no such thing as RMS watts.

To me it seems my "new" amp would be just about in the middle of what the speakers can handle, am I wrong?

OP, I'll try to make it a little more simple for you.

"I have a pair of Avid 102 speakers that say, on the front of the speaker box, min watts 15, max watts 100."
This means that Avid is stating that you should use an amp that can produce at least 15w RMS, and not more than 100w RMS. Simple as that.

"I just got a Scott 370R amp recently that says it has 60 watts min. RMS.
Now, from what I originally read, this amp should power my speakers better than my old amp, a Sansui 221 with 12 watts min. RMS. I turn my amp up to a max of a notch or two over half volume."
Given the above recommendation your Sansui 221 is on the lower border of the necessary power needed to make your speakers sing. As the others have stated, if you overdrive this amp it will go into clipping and can damage your speakers.
Your Scott 370R is much more suited to your speakers. It will be able to produce more clean power that can make your speakers sound better even at lower volumes because it can control the speaker motors better. It also has much more reserve power (headroom) so it won't go into clipping as easily. You can absolutely use this amp. I don't mean to dis your friend, but he is wrong. The Scott is actually less likely to damage your speakers than the Sansui.

Cheers,
James

 

[bowtie427ss]

I turn my amp up to a max of a notch or two over half volume.

If the amplifier has a volume knob that rotates from approximately 7:00 to 5:00 say, then a good rule of thumb is 2:00 as maximum leaves adequate headroom for the amplifier not to clip.

Position of the volume knob is a useful indicator of NOTHING, except the roll off point of the loudness contour on some gear.

Using the volume knob position as an indicator of your system's output is likely to get you into trouble sooner or later, usually sooner.

Learn to read your system with your ears.

I don't mean to dis your friend, but he is wrong. The Scott is actually less likely to damage your speakers than the Sansui.

Not if the OP is using the position of the volume knob to reference power output.