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Continuous Vintage Failure: Please Recommend New "Modern" Amp

I think most here would agree that the old FTC standards were a lot better than what passes for standards nowadays. I cringe every time I see an ad for a "1000-Watt" "five-pound" receiver, or "1000 Watt" speakers.

I bought one of the original IBM PC's Amber monitor and all when they first came out. I'm still a fan of the old clicky IBM keyboards. Currently I have a couple of Corsair keyboards with Blue switches.

Without question. The vast, vast majority of amp specs are very, very ambiguous, so you literally do not know what you are getting in terms or performance. The Outlaw receiver is an exception that has much better than typical specs for a modern amp (though still less than 1974 testing standards):

Outlaw RR-2160MKII: https://outlawaudio.com/shop/stereo-receivers/56-rr2160mkii-stereo-receiver.html:
Outlaw's specs: 110 watts per channel, 20 Hz - 20kHz, 0.05% THD, both channels driven into 8 ohms 165 watts per channel, 20 Hz - 20kHz, 0.05% THD, both channels driven into 4 ohms
My Comments: This is much better than typical modern, quotes power with full frequency range and distortion -- their spec doesn't say "continuous", but S&V bench tests backs these stats up as continuous

Most of the others are totally ambiguous, and have red flags if you read specs carefully:

NAD C 3050 ($1400) https://nadelectronics.com/product/c-3050-stereophonic-amplifier/
NAD's Specs: Full Disclosure Power: 100 watts continuous per channel into 8/4 ohms
My Comments: Doesn't say at what distortion or frequency range for power rating. In fact, neither frequency response nor distortion is listed anywhere in the stats. It's also very telling about power supply current capability that 4ohm power output is same as 8 ohm

Leak 130: ($1000, $1200 with wood) https://www.leak-hifi.co.uk/stereo130/
Leak's stats:
Rated Output Power2 x 45W (8ohm)/2x65W (4ohm)
Total Harmonic Distortion< 0.005% (30W, 8ohm)
Frequency Response20Hz-20kHz (+/-0.5dB)
My Comments: Red Flag: THD has to be taken at 66% of power output, Ambiguous: Are those watts continuous? (probably not since distortion must be much higher at max power) At what power level is FR 20-20khz?

There was a thread a not long ago that got closed down asking whether vintage watts are greater than modern watts. The answer to that question is "yes", vintage watts are greater the vast majority of the time. That doesn't mean there aren't good modern amps, but it is necessary to evaluate each modern amp very closely. Because modern specs are all over the map and loose, for the vast majority of modern products, a "100 watt" or whatever watt rating to day is less (and often far less) than a 100 or whatever rating from the vintage (post 1974 FTC law) era where equipment was tested to a much higher standard than almost anyone uses today.
 
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The more robust construction and realistic power ratings are why I recommend separates. If you buy a brand name power amplifier it's more than likely that you can rely on the specs being relatively accurate and honest. This applies equally to old (vintage) and new.
 
Nothing ambiguous here. Just an old school Stereo FTC power rating.
  • 100 W per channel (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.06% THD, 2-ch driven)
From a 2018 Yamaha RX A880 7.1 Channel Dolby Atmos Network streaming AVR.

Probably closer to 50 wpc with all 7 channels operating. Which if you're using a sub to reinforce the bass, will produce a very satisfying HT experience with the right speaker package.
 
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The importance placed on specifications, whether they're old FTC specs or more vague modern ones, is in my opinion misguided. If good specs guaranteed good sound and bad specs guaranteed bad sound there would be very few valve amps sold (maybe none), Nelson Pass would never sell any of his kits, nobody would be interested in the John Linsley-Hood 10 watt amp fifty years after it was designed, etc., etc. People have been debating for decades why the correlation between good specs and good sound seems to be so poor and comments abound on this forum along the lines of "I don't care what the specs say, I know what sounds good".
Personally, I wouldn't be guided by specs whether they're FTC or not.
 
The importance placed on specifications, whether they're old FTC specs or more vague modern ones, is in my opinion misguided. If good specs guaranteed good sound and bad specs guaranteed bad sound there would be very few valve amps sold (maybe none), Nelson Pass would never sell any of his kits, nobody would be interested in the John Linsley-Hood 10 watt amp fifty years after it was designed, etc., etc. People have been debating for decades why the correlation between good specs and good sound seems to be so poor and comments abound on this forum along the lines of "I don't care what the specs say, I know what sounds good".
Personally, I wouldn't be guided by specs whether they're FTC or not.
I used to worry about them, glad I got over that in my early 20's once I understood them.
 
I consider specs to be quite useful for comparisons, but that's about it. No matter how good the published specs, or how vague, they tell you absolutely nothing about what a piece of gear is going to sound like with the rest of YOUR gear, in YOUR room, and to YOUR ears. Or how long it's likely to last.

In power amps, I prefer simplicity over features. Quality design, build, and components, are more important to me than brand names, prices, or specs. Fortunately, I don't have very deep pockets.

Tube guys get it. Just because it might not measure as good doesn't mean it can't sound as good as, or even better than, gear with better specs on paper.
 
The importance placed on specifications, whether they're old FTC specs or more vague modern ones, is in my opinion misguided. If good specs guaranteed good sound and bad specs guaranteed bad sound there would be very few valve amps sold (maybe none), Nelson Pass would never sell any of his kits, nobody would be interested in the John Linsley-Hood 10 watt amp fifty years after it was designed, etc., etc. People have been debating for decades why the correlation between good specs and good sound seems to be so poor and comments abound on this forum along the lines of "I don't care what the specs say, I know what sounds good".
Personally, I wouldn't be guided by specs whether they're FTC or not.

It's a simple as this:

1. Meeting the FTC specs does not guarantee great sound because music is a million times more complex than a sine wave (in other words, I agree with you :))

2. However, an amp that is incapable of meeting the most basic baseline specs of reproducing the full audible spectrum (20-20khz) with reasonable distortion over a meaningful power range will perform poorly in real world conditions.
 
I think the old saying, "you get what you pay for" isn't quite right.

A more accurate of putting it would be, "you don't get what you don't pay for". Especially when talking new stereo gear.
 
A more accurate of putting it would be, "you don't get what you don't pay for". Especially when talking new stereo gear.

From someone that has made the change to new in their main system over the last few years, this is pretty much :bs:

And to the :boring::boring::boring:point here :biggrin:

:beerchug:
 
2. However, an amp that is incapable of meeting the most basic baseline specs of reproducing the full audible spectrum (20-20khz) with reasonable distortion over a meaningful power range will perform poorly in real world conditions.
I think you'd struggle to find an amp that couldn't do 20Hz-20kHz, with the possible exception of valve amps.
And I'm not sure what would be the point of making strictly-defined measurements when you're checking for "reasonable" distortion. What's the specification for "reasonable"?
 
I think you'd struggle to find an amp that couldn't do 20Hz-20kHz, with the possible exception of valve amps.

I think it is a shocking number of new amps that can't hit it (or rated distortion) at full power. That's why most of them split out frequency response as a separate line item (no power level specified) in the specs, and distortion as a separate line item (with no power specified, or reduced power to meet the distortion). Two examples are in post #181, (https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...-new-modern-amp.1039719/page-10#post-16645029) Outlaw is the exception, the other two (NAD and Leak) are not inexpensive amps.

Yamaha quotes power peak level with a 1khz signal at 10% distortion (https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/hifi_components/r-s202/specs.html#product-tabs), frequency response is listed "10 Hz – 100 kHz (0 ± 0.5 dB / 0 ± 3.0 dB)" (no power levels specified for that frequency response) for its low-end receiver. Crutchfield (https://www.crutchfield.com/S-RY3mLIFxLby/p_022RS202/Yamaha-R-S202.html) (and others selling that receiver) gives specs if 100 wpc at 0.2% distortion that are not in evidence in Yamaha's numbers. Crutchfield (and others) at least has the courtesy to admit that the frequency response is only 40hz-20khz (not the 10hz-100khz :eek: Yamaha stated with no power levels specified). I don't need 100 watts, I need only 10 good watts per channel (e.g. sound quality up to 10 watts). I had that receiver for 15 minutes and it sounded like crap at 0 to 10 watts. I was even using it with a sub, but could not dial in decent bass performance because speaker-level output (it doesn't have a sub output) from the amp is limited in low frequency output. People in another thread have said, it's $200 receiver, what do you expect? Well, I should be able to expect 100 wpc because that is how it is broadly represented everywhere it is sold. That said, my bar was a way, way lower -- I couldn't have cared less about 100wpc, I only wanted 10 watts (at most) that didn't sound awful, and it did not deliver. It sounded awful, then it failed after 15 minutes at moderate volume.

And I'm not sure what would be the point of making strictly-defined measurements when you're checking for "reasonable" distortion. What's the specification for "reasonable"?

I intentionally used the term "reasonable" to keep it loose and to agree with your point that it isn't that critical -- THD doesn't need to be 0.05%, or even 0.1% (good tube amps are much higher and perform extermely well). That said, providing specs at 10% distortion or (more common) unspecified distortion is not viable or justifiable, but it is commonplace now. Beware of line-item isolated power, distortion, frequency specs, they are hiding a lot.
 
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The importance placed on specifications, whether they're old FTC specs or more vague modern ones, is in my opinion misguided. If good specs guaranteed good sound and bad specs guaranteed bad sound there would be very few valve amps sold (maybe none), Nelson Pass would never sell any of his kits, nobody would be interested in the John Linsley-Hood 10 watt amp fifty years after it was designed, etc., etc. People have been debating for decades why the correlation between good specs and good sound seems to be so poor and comments abound on this forum along the lines of "I don't care what the specs say, I know what sounds good".
Personally, I wouldn't be guided by specs whether they're FTC or not.
I have posted more than once that I don't pay much attention to specs. Every single piece of gear I've considered in the last 40+ years or so has had excellent specs. When you stay away from receivers and "Lo-Fi" gear and concentrate on separates you can almost always rely on the gear having good specs at minimum. In fact, the specs are usually exemplary. That being the case, how a piece of gear sounds in my room is what I'm concerned with.
 
I think it is a shocking number of new amps that can't hit it (or rated distortion) at full power.
On reflection, I must admit that I've seen plenty of extremely cheap class D amps on ebay with exaggerated power claims and shockingly poor distortion (like 10%). Yes, they're very poor.
 
The good old days of car audio wasn't that good either. Companies like Pyramid, JSA, Majestic, Sentrek, LA Sound, and a bunch more were unrealistic on their power output numbers..
 
On reflection, I must admit that I've seen plenty of extremely cheap class D amps on ebay with exaggerated power claims and shockingly poor distortion (like 10%). Yes, they're very poor.

There will always be those -- it's pretty much "anything goes" on an unregulated marketplace like eBay.

I'm really talking about the examples I gave where quality brands intentionally fudge their specs to make their amp look better than it is.

For example, a $1000 amp, rated at 45 wpc, should not have to drop to 30 watts to achieve a THD spec the manufacturer feels comfortable publishing.


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Nothing ambiguous here. Just an old school Stereo FTC power rating.
  • 100 W per channel (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.06% THD, 2-ch driven)
From a 2018 Yamaha RX A880 7.1 Channel Dolby Atmos Network streaming AVR.

Probably closer to 50 wpc with all 7 channels operating. Which if you're using a sub to reinforce the bass, will produce a very satisfying HT experience with the right speaker package.

?? Old school would spec RMS .. and that spec would be @ at a given load and freq. respponse range .. kind of missing the @ there ..
And how is it getting to 50wpc with 7 channels driven from a spec of 100wpc w/ 2 channels driven ??
 
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One spec that I always look at is AC power consumption ..
It can comparatively point up significant differences in an amp's power potential ...

An amp that's consuming 50w is not going to have the cojones of an amp that's consuming 1200w at the wall ..
 
?? Old school would spec RMS .. and that spec would be @ at a given load and freq. respponse range .. kind of missing the @ there ..
And how is it getting to 50wpc with 7 channels driven from a spec of 100wpc w/ 2 channels driven ??
Talking class A/B amps, this comes from the max amount of power the supply can deliver, which apparently is enough to let 7 channels provide 350 Watts total. The 100W at 2 channels comes from the maximum voltage the power supply gives, resulting in 2x100W if two amps circuits are steered to the max. Trying to crank up all channels to the 100W level would have the supply run out of juice, the supply voltage becomes lower and therefore the limit becomes 7x50W because of the supply voltages seriously deteriorated for DC level.
 
Talking class A/B amps, this comes from the max amount of power the supply can deliver, which apparently is enough to let 7 channels provide 350 Watts total. The 100W at 2 channels comes from the maximum voltage the power supply gives, resulting in 2x100W if two amps circuits are steered to the max. Trying to crank up all channels to the 100W level would have the supply run out of juice, the supply voltage becomes lower and therefore the limit becomes 7x50W because of the supply voltages seriously deteriorated for DC level.

Can't say that I can quite wrap my head around how a power supply that can only deliver 200 watts into 2 channels can turn around and deliver 350 watts into 7 channels.
That said I've noticed that home theater specs don't always add up ... but I never really looked into it ..
And I've forgotten too much about how an amplifier is really working in there.

Life in a 2-channel world ..
Enjoy the music ..
 
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